I came here to learn more about Wing Chun. In my brief time practicing WC, there were many principles that fit in well with my other training (connecting, adduction) and some that did not mesh at all (100% weight on rear foot.) I left that school; not because of those differences, of course. If I return to WC someday, I'd like to check out other branches. If your system pivots on the heels, toes, or left butt cheek, I don't care. IF you can explain why, make it work, and teach it, I'm open to it. Not because your sifu said so and he is the one true way. I don't care at all whose style is closer to Yip Man, or who was a student of whom.
Are you really interested in exchanging ideas?
- Thread starter geezer
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I do want to see video of that left-butt-cheek pivot, though.
I would like to see more people talk about what they do instead of trying to invalidate someone else. It's not necessary to believe or make it about what's right or what's wrong.
Guy A does this and Guy B does something else. That's how they do things and both may have some knowledge that is useful. But we won't know if all they are doing is fighting debates and try to present the better argument instead of sharing their experience.
Guy A does this and Guy B does something else. That's how they do things and both may have some knowledge that is useful. But we won't know if all they are doing is fighting debates and try to present the better argument instead of sharing their experience.
I've only posted on here a few times. I occasionally peek at this forum to see if there is any interesting discussion going on. Like most forums, some threads start off interesting but degrade into off-topic arguments. While that can be entertaining, I would rather learn something. Still it's interesting to see how others perceive wing chun. It is definitely a system that has many unique approaches...some I agree with, some I don't. To be honest, I prefer to use this as a place to connect with people off-line. I have already connected with some great people...one of whom has dramatically changed the course of my training.
Leaving record for others, 'correct information', as Guy B stated, is a very altruistic ideal, if indeed you have the 'correct information'. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. I, for one, have been sure I had the 'correct information' several times along my WC journey. At some point I decided better to try and be more humble, as there are many paths up the mountain.
All in all, this seems to be an okay WC forum. Maybe I'll post more in the future when I'm finally sure that I have the 'correct information'.
Leaving record for others, 'correct information', as Guy B stated, is a very altruistic ideal, if indeed you have the 'correct information'. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. I, for one, have been sure I had the 'correct information' several times along my WC journey. At some point I decided better to try and be more humble, as there are many paths up the mountain.
All in all, this seems to be an okay WC forum. Maybe I'll post more in the future when I'm finally sure that I have the 'correct information'.
I'm fairly certain that WC is no different from any other MA in that there is not a single "correct" version of the information. Rather, there are likely several ways that can be "correct", and as a student approaches any one of them, they start to better understand how much they still haven't gotten "correct".
Cephalopod
Green Belt
I drop by to gain a better understanding of why other practitioners do what they do.
I used to see different angles, structures and approaches from the ones I practice, and in the back of my head I would write them off as wrong or even garbage. Why? Because they were not the same as my own. Then I started getting out more and visiting other schools, rolling and sparring with other lineages and styles.
In short order I found that others simply had their own way of making things work. Those different angles and structures simply had to be put in the context of everything else they were doing. In the process I learned more about my own practice...exploited weaknesses that needed to be resolved or simply different useful perspectives on a concept I could apply to my stuff.
Thus far, nothing I've experienced has made the teachings of my sifu seem any less valid or made me feel I should be investing my time elsewhere. But I have come away with a healthy respect for (well, at least some of
) the other schools I've played with, and I'm grateful for the learning I've done with their help.
Likewise I have gleaned a good bit of insight into other lineages and schools of thought by lurking in the shadows of this forum. So I thank you all!
So often I feel like contributing an idea to a thread but by the time I get there it has devolved into a few guys grinding axes. My desire to throw myself into such an unproductive fray just evaporates. Maybe I'm too mellow, maybe I just believe that the essence of Wing Chun is to let force by, not to fight it with more force.
Train on!
I used to see different angles, structures and approaches from the ones I practice, and in the back of my head I would write them off as wrong or even garbage. Why? Because they were not the same as my own. Then I started getting out more and visiting other schools, rolling and sparring with other lineages and styles.
In short order I found that others simply had their own way of making things work. Those different angles and structures simply had to be put in the context of everything else they were doing. In the process I learned more about my own practice...exploited weaknesses that needed to be resolved or simply different useful perspectives on a concept I could apply to my stuff.
Thus far, nothing I've experienced has made the teachings of my sifu seem any less valid or made me feel I should be investing my time elsewhere. But I have come away with a healthy respect for (well, at least some of
) the other schools I've played with, and I'm grateful for the learning I've done with their help.Likewise I have gleaned a good bit of insight into other lineages and schools of thought by lurking in the shadows of this forum. So I thank you all!
So often I feel like contributing an idea to a thread but by the time I get there it has devolved into a few guys grinding axes. My desire to throw myself into such an unproductive fray just evaporates. Maybe I'm too mellow, maybe I just believe that the essence of Wing Chun is to let force by, not to fight it with more force.
Train on!
Well, its kind of interesting that Callen and Lobo66 manage to post here without offending and insulting everyone. You know, that "other" forum went downhill and all but died because it got very "unpleasant". And the "unpleasantness" centered around a small group of posters....at least 3 of which were very dogmatic WSLPBVT guys.
I'd recommend you go back and read the tag line for this forum in general..."friendly martial arts discussions". And it might help to read the rules. It really isn't all that hard to post in a tactful and inoffensive way while still describing how your system is different than others. Maybe your version of VT is better! But why not let people reach that conclusion on their own based upon your technical explanations rather than just simply pronouncing every Ip Man system other than WSLVT to be "broken"?
I don't think I have been unfriendly. It's just that the info and perspective I share doesn't sit well with you.
And I've had private messages over time from people who appreciate my technical explanations. So, I don't mind if you want to keep upsetting yourself when I share a view you don't like. Maybe you should start your own message board.
Juany118
Senior Master
I post because I see martial arts not only as a tool for fighting but also for personal growth. To grow you need to expose yourself to other ideas and compare them to your own with an open mind, even if in the end it simply becomes an exercise in compare and contrast. If we learn something new we grow, if we reinforce what we already know we become stronger.
I also understand that people will think they have little or nothing to learn. The only time that becomes frustrating is how they express it. Think political Commentators in the US. You have George Will (and had William F Buckley) a Conservative but also intellectual who also believes in producing evidence and civilized debate, even if he knows the result will be two people disagreeing. When he (they) would debate they sought an exchange of ideas. Then you have someone like Sean Hannity. He isn't looking for a civilized debate and an exchange of ideas. He does a political version of preaching to the choir with little evidence and in the end, if you disagree tries to club you over the head with it.
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I also understand that people will think they have little or nothing to learn. The only time that becomes frustrating is how they express it. Think political Commentators in the US. You have George Will (and had William F Buckley) a Conservative but also intellectual who also believes in producing evidence and civilized debate, even if he knows the result will be two people disagreeing. When he (they) would debate they sought an exchange of ideas. Then you have someone like Sean Hannity. He isn't looking for a civilized debate and an exchange of ideas. He does a political version of preaching to the choir with little evidence and in the end, if you disagree tries to club you over the head with it.
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Not quite sure why you posted this link here? Are they hippies as well?
Why are you certain of this?
Because, as I've pointed out in a different thread, absolute transmission of information is impossible human-to-human. Each person will add and remove bits, mostly by interpretation. If two people were trained ABSOLUTELY THE SAME, and were both highly dedicated and intelligent, they'd end up with two different variations of the same thing. There's no way to avoid that, no magical training method stops it from happening.
Yes but we have also discussed that envelopes of acceptable variation vary with different activities and that WSL VT is predominantly a skill learned physically via paired exercises and other drills.
You agree that physical skills can be learned exactly to within a very small margin of error. Given that you now know a bit more about how the system is learned, and given the topics of recent arguments, why would you assume that there is not a single correct version, and that several ways that the system can be "correct" is more likely?
It seems like quite a political thing to say, and not based on much, given that you haven't experienced the system? Seems more motivated by what LFJ described as a hippyish tendency to want everyone to be right and for everything to be relative than any kind of evidence based understanding?
As we discussed before, the physical skills - even if that is how it is transmitted (I'll come back to that in a moment) - are the only part that can be transmitted pretty closely. There will still be variation, but it's possible within several generations to have no significant physical variations in any area that matters. The issue is with understanding - things like strategy, the principles behind the movements, etc. Those concepts must be dealt with in the mind of the student, and that mind is where the differences occur.
As for the art being transmitted entirely physically, that's perception. The reality is that the instructors talk for a reason. You've already discussed the fact that YM was sparing in his dissemination of information, not sharing the same explanations with every student, but still presented the entirety of the physical movement in a logical, step-by-step order. By contrast, WSL presented the information more fully, in a more complete manner. That's not a difference in the physical delivery, but in explanations.
This has nothing to do with a "tendency to want everyone to be right", but a recognition that it's highly improbable that only one way is. There are certainly ways to get it wrong. I've yet to find an art that couldn't manage to produce some instructors who mess it up, either by misunderstanding, by omission, or by adding stuff that doesn't fit.
In VT the strategy which requires understanding by the mind is very sparse, and it is recorded quite explicitly in writing.
As Philipp Bayer says, "Understanding the genius of Ving Tsun should not take longer than an afternoon. By then, everything should be clear"
Understanding of strategy and tactic is indeed passed into the body and mind via physical exercises, not by listening to the teacher speak. Learning the system physically in the correct way is by far the most important thing.
No, it isn't. System understanding is required by the teacher. It isn't required by the student. Knowing the reason for performing a particular drill is of course very useful in terms of understanding, but the system is not learned by listening, pondering, coming up with ideas and new developments. Provided practice is taken seriously and training is done to the best of one's abilities, VT can be learned fully while having only very basic conscious conceptual understanding of the system.
What it does require though is immense trust and perseverence.
YM certainly didn't share the entirety of the physical movement with every student. Many simply copied other students. Many did not complete the system. Many never fought with VT for example, which is a necessary part of the development.
Where YM did show teach the physical movements to particular individuals (of course in the correct order, at the correct time), what he often didn't do was make sure the students knew what they were doing. Many therefore left with parts of the system, not yet functional, which they assumed were for other things than the actual purpose, for example chi sau drills. Many also created their own understanding of why they were doing certain exercises, which quickly led to the degeneration of their wing chun.
By looking at some of the wing chun derived from YM's teaching it is often clearly possible to tell where the originator of the style stopped learning the system from YM.
wingchun100
Senior Master
Yes, if only we ALL followed that code.
I hang around to learn and pick up different views and their own interpretation of the art.
I love doing wc but im still new, so cant really provide any advice or contribute to any discussions.
Try to stay out of the political side as it does not help me get better, the human body works in many ways and there is always multiple solutions to any situation.
I love doing wc but im still new, so cant really provide any advice or contribute to any discussions.
Try to stay out of the political side as it does not help me get better, the human body works in many ways and there is always multiple solutions to any situation.
wingchun100
Senior Master
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