Why do people think grappling arts always beat striking arts?

[Skullpunch]

Not really because, as an example, even other members of the Gracie family confessed that Royler had issues with kick boxers. Doesn't mean he lost to them consistently but fighting is a lot more than style vs style.

Names? Because the only guys I recall Royler losing to when he was anywhere near his prime were Sakuraba, Sudo, and mayyyyybe Kid Yamamoto but that last one's pushing it on the whole "in his prime" aspect of it. Who were the kickboxers he had so many problems with?

I see an issue. The Gracie's if not THE best grapplers of their time were among them. They trained almost exclusively in BJJ (though Royce did cross train in Muay Thai for the Hughes fight as an example that it was not completely exclusive near the end). However when they started facing fighters who didn't train exclusively in grappling but also trained in striking they started to lose.

Now there are only so many training hours in the day. Who is likely to be the better grappler, the guy who spends the vast majority, if not all, of his training in grappling or the guy who split trains in grappling and striking? Yet the people who split trained started beating the Gracie's. How did Royler and Royce lose to Sakuraba? Sakuraba managed to avoid the ground game with his wrestling skills and turned the fights into striking fights.

Come on man put 2 and 2 together here. Look at the part in bold, then look at the part of my previous post you quoted and put in bold yourself. Sakuraba did exactly this

The best way to prevent a fight from going to the ground is to be a better wrestler than your attacker.

If Sakuraba were not a superior wrestler compared to the Gracies we might be going "Kazushi who?" right now.

To deal with a skilled grappler you indeed need a knowledge of grappling, however a more skilled near exclusive grappler (al la the Gracies) can lose to a more "balanced" fighter if that fighter knows how to use both striking and grappling in combination.

Of course. But the subject of the thread is "grapplers vs strikers". Not "grapplers vs. well rounded fighters"

 

[sgraves]

in any case if you have one without the other that makes you an incomplete martial artist but I think its a case ignorance to be honest you have to have standing martial arts cause if you go to the ground in a street fight its no telling what will happen to you if the guys buddies are feeling a certain type of way cause their friend is getting beat up that means your in trouble but hats besides the points it just takes some show and tell with bjj guys and submission wrestlers

 

[Hanzou]

in any case if you have one without the other that makes you an incomplete martial artist but I think its a case ignorance to be honest you have to have standing martial arts cause if you go to the ground in a street fight its no telling what will happen to you if the guys buddies are feeling a certain type of way cause their friend is getting beat up that means your in trouble but hats besides the points it just takes some show and tell with bjj guys and submission wrestlers

Bjj always starts standing up, so yeah, it covers both standing and ground fighting.

The same cannot be said for most martial arts. They focus on fighting from an optimal position and do little to no training about fighting from an inferior position.

 

[Ironbear24]

Bjj always starts standing up, so yeah, it covers both standing and ground fighting.

The same cannot be said for most martial arts. They focus on fighting from an optimal position and do little to no training about fighting from an inferior position.

I cannot speak for all martial arts but mine had us begin from being already in a locked full Nelson. The day before with our leg hooked.

I completely agree with you, if the teachings never delve into being in less dominant positions you will more than likely panic when they happen.

 

[sgraves]

Bjj always starts standing up, so yeah, it covers both standing and ground fighting.

The same cannot be said for most martial arts. They focus on fighting from an optimal position and do little to no training about fighting from an inferior position.

I have to dis agree sir cause bjj main focus is taking your opponent to the ground it cant cover both if strikes aren't apart of the equation there are some techniques that can be done standing up but the majority of the art focuses ground work

 

[Hanzou]

I have to dis agree sir cause bjj main focus is taking your opponent to the ground it cant cover both if strikes aren't apart of the equation there are some techniques that can be done standing up but the majority of the art focuses ground work

Really?

Why can't it cover both? If I perform a hip toss on an assailant and his head hits the concrete, the fight is over. If I perform a standing guillotine on an assailant trying to tackle me, and I choke him out, the fight is over. If I perform an Osoto Gari on an assailant, and retain control of his arm and perform a standing arm lock and pop the elbow, the fight is over.

All of that is in Bjj. At least it should be.

In every case the only part of my body that hit the ground were my feet.

Yes, Bjj focuses on ground fighting, but any Bjj school worth its salt will tell you that the vast majority of fights start standing up and will teach you how to fight from that range. Hell, Relson Gracie's school states very plainly that if you don't have a good clinch you don't have good Jiujitsu.

 

[Steve]

I have to dis agree sir cause bjj main focus is taking your opponent to the ground it cant cover both if strikes aren't apart of the equation there are some techniques that can be done standing up but the majority of the art focuses ground work

Most Bjj guys who want to learn to strike will have no problem also training boxing, Muay Thai or some other style. Bjj is a pretty great martial art, but I think the best thing about Bjj is that there's a practical sensibility. theres no conflict.

 

[sgraves]

Really?

Why can't it cover both? If I perform a hip toss on an assailant and his head hits the concrete, the fight is over. If I perform a standing guillotine on an assailant trying to tackle me, and I choke him out, the fight is over. If I perform an Osoto Gari on an assailant, and retain control of his arm and perform a standing arm lock and pop the elbow, the fight is over.

All of that is in Bjj. At least it should be.

In every case the only part of my body that hit the ground were my feet.

Yes, Bjj focuses on ground fighting, but any Bjj school worth its salt will tell you that the vast majority of fights start standing up. Hell, Relson Gracie's school states very plainly that if you don't have a good clinch you don't have good Jiujitsu.

if you want to go inot that realm then that's Japanese jujitsu not Brazilian and bjj isn't the only martial that utilizes that standing arm bar bjj focuses on ground fighting atleast 95 percent of it does

 

[sgraves]

Most Bjj guys who want to learn to strike will have no problem also training boxing, Muay Thai or some other style. Bjj is a pretty great martial art, but I think the best thing about Bjj is that there's a practical sensibility. theres no conflict.

that it is I wont deny that

 

[Hanzou]

if you want to go inot that realm then that's Japanese jujitsu not Brazilian and bjj isn't the only martial that utilizes that standing arm bar bjj focuses on ground fighting atleast 95 percent of it does

Um, just because Japanese JJ has standing arm bars and wrist locks doesn't mean that Bjj doesn't contain those as well. Where do you think the roots of Bjj come from?

BTW, how much ground grappling is in traditional Japanese Jujtusu?

 

[Ironbear24]

I have to dis agree sir cause bjj main focus is taking your opponent to the ground it cant cover both if strikes aren't apart of the equation there are some techniques that can be done standing up but the majority of the art focuses ground work

Careful. Criticizing bjj is like spitting on hanzou's mom.

 

[Hanzou]

Careful. Criticizing bjj is like spitting on hanzou's mom.

There's a difference between criticizing and spreading falsehoods.

 

[Ironbear24]

There's a difference between criticizing and spreading falsehoods.

Look, I love kenpo, really do, but at the same time I can admit that not everyone will have the same experience with it as I did. From the looks of it he learned it much different than you did.

 

[Hanzou]

Look, I love kenpo, really do, but at the same time I can admit that not everyone will have the same experience with it as I did. From the looks of it he learned it much different than you did.

There's a difference with pulling from your own experience and saying that all Bjj schools do this or that. A cursory look at Bjj across the spectrum would show you that not every Bjj school ignores standing grappling/fighting. Hell, just look at how Bjj was introduced to America via the UFC. Royce did quite well on his feet did he not? Old school Bjj like that is still taught in a lot of places around the country.

With that said, even sport Bjj schools should be learning standing takedowns and throws since competitive Bjj also starts from a standing position.

 

[Ironbear24]

There's a difference with pulling from your own experience and saying that all Bjj schools do this or that. A cursory look at Bjj across the spectrum would show you that not every Bjj school ignores standing grappling/fighting. Hell, just look at how Bjj was introduced to America via the UFC. Royce did quite well on his feet did he not? Old school Bjj like that is still taught in a lot of places around the country.

Chuck Lidel did great to with Kenpo Karate, but there are plenty of terrible Kenpo dojos out there. There are also great ones too, but when someone says kenpo is a garbage TMA I just go.

"Look man, find a good dojo and go their with an open mind." Maybe this guy learned some bad bjj? After all if he is getting only a partial experience that could be the case.

 

[Juany118]

Names? Because the only guys I recall Royler losing to when he was anywhere near his prime were Sakuraba, Sudo, and mayyyyybe Kid Yamamoto but that last one's pushing it on the whole "in his prime" aspect of it. Who were the kickboxers he had so many problems with?





Come on man put 2 and 2 together here. Look at the part in bold, then look at the part of my previous post you quoted and put in bold yourself. Sakuraba did exactly this



If Sakuraba were not a superior wrestler compared to the Gracies we might be going "Kazushi who?" right now.



Of course. But the subject of the thread is "grapplers vs strikers". Not "grapplers vs. well rounded fighters"

As for the first, if you note, I said Royler had issues with them more so than "beaten" by them. It was Royce who said that in an interview, maybe because on the surface the way Royler ended up being the first loss for the Gracies in MMA appeared to be based on kicks softening him up for the final submission? I don't know but you would have to ask Royce.

As for Sakuraba he won imo for two reasons. First fight he was good enough of a wrestler to NOT play into Royler's ground game. If he was a "better" wrestler why dodge it? Answer going wrestling mode would have played to Royler's strengths, Sakuraba was good enough to avoid and smart enough not to be baited and used striking to soften Royler up to the point where the ground game was practical. Against Royce the above with one additional factor. The lack of time limit meant that as the fight started getting to like the 5th round Sakuraba being in better condition had more "wind" left in him than Royce. So that after what was essentially 2 straight rounds of unanswered kicking to the legs (rounds 5 and 6) Rorion threw in the towel.

As for the last bit I only added the "well rounded" bit because of your claim that you had to be a better grappler to beat another grappler. That isn't true, you can simply be a "good enough grappler" to avoid that particular "game" and use striking that the grappler doesn't have a thorough response to.

 

[Hanzou]

Chuck Lidel did great to with Kenpo Karate, but there are plenty of terrible Kenpo dojos out there. There are also great ones too, but when someone says kenpo is a garbage TMA I just go.

"Look man, find a good dojo and go their with an open mind." Maybe this guy learned some bad bjj? After all if he is getting only a partial experience that could be the case.

I don't believe that Graves was saying that Bjj is garbage, he was saying that Bjj has no standup.

It's the equivalent of saying that TKD has no punches.

 

[RTKDCMB]

There's a difference between criticizing and spreading falsehoods.

Speaking of falsehoods:

The same cannot be said for most martial arts. They focus on fighting from an optimal position and do little to no training about fighting from an inferior position.

Really? Most martial arts?

he was saying that Bjj has no standup.

It's the equivalent of saying that TKD has no punches.

For an analogy this is spot on.

 

[Kickboxer101]

I have to dis agree sir cause bjj main focus is taking your opponent to the ground it cant cover both if strikes aren't apart of the equation there are some techniques that can be done standing up but the majority of the art focuses ground work

You should probably know this guys the biggest bjj fanboy on here and won't take a single point of criticism of the art

 

[Ironbear24]

I don't believe that Graves was saying that Bjj is garbage, he was saying that Bjj has no standup.

It's the equivalent of saying that TKD has no punches.

He didn't say it was garbage, I know that but he still gave a criticism based on his knowledge of it. If in his experience he found it lacked stand up and strikes then well it is what it is. He learned from a different place than you did.