why do people hate kata

[Em MacIntosh]

What a great site this is.

When I do kata, my state of mind is that my blocks must be fast, or I die. Every strike must make it's mark and kill my opponent, or I die. Every step must be crisp and quick, every movement as if I meant it for real. Nobody who does kata would defend themselves with a kata, they would defend themselves with the attitude they are supposed to cultivate, the conditioning of their body and the techniques they practice religiously.
Kata is not essential. I enjoy it. I feel I understand it. Something to do in the mountains after I grow a beard and become a hermit. Try doing bunkai with bricks to break. You get what you put in only if you understand why you do it. If you don't get it, your time would be better spent working on just technique, conditioning and full-contact sparring.

 

[chinto]

What a great site this is.

When I do kata, my state of mind is that my blocks must be fast, or I die. Every strike must make it's mark and kill my opponent, or I die. Every step must be crisp and quick, every movement as if I meant it for real. Nobody who does kata would defend themselves with a kata, they would defend themselves with the attitude they are supposed to cultivate, the conditioning of their body and the techniques they practice religiously.
Kata is not essential. I enjoy it. I feel I understand it. Something to do in the mountains after I grow a beard and become a hermit. Try doing bunkai with bricks to break. You get what you put in only if you understand why you do it. If you don't get it, your time would be better spent working on just technique, conditioning and full-contact sparring.

I think I would have to agree with you in most reaspects. the other thing that kata teaches is the mental mind set as you said, and it also teaches you to react with calm. If you practice the responces in kata with speed and power and good form, and then on top of that you practice the other aspects of kata such as combinations and "tiger eye" and other aspects that teach more then just basic movement and technique.

aspects of kata being :
pattern
form
combinations
breathing
tight- no tight
tiger eye
kiai

 

[chinto]

But, all the explanation and "apologetics" for kata will not convince those who do not understand or enjoy kata. I quit trying to proselytize that crowd long ago. If you don't like to march, don't join the Marines. If you don't like kata, don't do karate.

LOL yep that is provably a very good way to put it.

 

[truth_seeker87]

Because they are

1: Taught the form incorrectly so it makes no sense.

2: Taught in a manner that does not promote the right behavior and attitude in practising

3: Not taught that the Kata is meant to be broken down piece by piece to represent life protection techniques.


fairly simplistic but thats how I have seen it.

 

[chinto]

Because they are

1: Taught the form incorrectly so it makes no sense.

2: Taught in a manner that does not promote the right behavior and attitude in practising

3: Not taught that the Kata is meant to be broken down piece by piece to represent life protection techniques.


fairly simplistic but thats how I have seen it.

yep that is a true thing, and a mojor factor in the problem.

 

[jtreid_1999]

Hi BlackCatBonz,


"And I have communicated with BJJ and MMA practitioners who have bragged that those styles take the shortest time to learn."

Ooh man, anyone who has trained BJJ under a good instructor for even a short period of time will tell you that the typical path to BJJ black belt is around ten years and you actually have to be able to *perform* at a very high level in order to progress in rank. And while I certainly understand that MMA is not the be-all-and-end-all of martial arts, it requires competence in, if not near mastery of, many types of martial arts: boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, grappling, etc. as well as the conditioning of a professional athlete. Anyone who claims that BJJ and MMA are easier to learn that traditional martial arts simply does not know what they're talking about.

I found this thread on katas because I'm considering starting a shotokan class because the martial arts in my area are "limited" to trad martial arts. I am not belittling trad martials arts by using the term "limited", merely pointing out that there are no non-traditional MA schools in my area. I have very limited experience with trad martial arts and katas and, yes, I am skeptical about training in a martial art that focuses on katas. But, what the heck--I'm not a highly accomplished martial artist (the highest rank I have is a green belt) and I don't plan on cage fighting since I'm 42 years old and have only been doing martial arts for about 5 years, but since the vast majority of my training has been in RBSD (krav maga and haganah) as well as in JKD, muay thai, BJJ, and boxing I'm not sure how I will respond to a traditional martial art. But, as long as the training is hard and I feel like I'm improving my self defense skills, sparring skills, conditioning, flexibility, and knowledge then I'm all for it.

I took about a month of kenpo and really liked the instructor--he's a very high black belt in Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate and an extremely nice guy--but I was just used to a different type of training that focused more on bag work, RBSD, sparring, and conditioning. Nothing against that school or style--just a question of what I am interested in training. Plus, I really want to train in an art/system/whatever that incorporates a lot of ground fighting/grappling because I think it's important to have those skills and because I enjoy training it. I've ruled out judo and Japanese JJ, however, because I really don't want to spend the next several years getting thrown on my back (or head!)

Anyway, I'll stop rambling now and, if anyone's interested in my unsolicited opinion, I will post again once I've taken some shotokan classes just to share my experience with the forum.

Cheers.

TR

 

[Omar B]

I've got a unique take on Kata because I've been a guitar player since I was a child. You practise your instrument for hours every day to build muscle memory in your fingers, to make your playing natural, effortless, thoughtless. Now I just thing "ok, I gotta play now" and it happens.

I see Kata the same, you do it over and over, just like in music you do everything perfect every time and eventually it's engrained in you just like playing an instrument. It's about muscle memory and having something happen naturally without thought.

After all, we had to learn then practise how to talk, walk, run, jump ... why do peopel think that karate is any different?

 

[setboy]

I've got a unique take on Kata because I've been a guitar player since I was a child. You practise your instrument for hours every day to build muscle memory in your fingers, to make your playing natural, effortless, thoughtless. Now I just thing "ok, I gotta play now" and it happens.

I see Kata the same, you do it over and over, just like in music you do everything perfect every time and eventually it's engrained in you just like playing an instrument. It's about muscle memory and having something happen naturally without thought.

After all, we had to learn then practise how to talk, walk, run, jump ... why do peopel think that karate is any different?

this is how i see it too. must have something to do with playing the guitar as well

 

[Omar B]

I hear ya man. It's not just the repetition that works but how you practice. You've gotta do it perfect, with perfect form every time or it does not get written in your muscle memory.

 

[dancingalone]

And I have communicated with BJJ and MMA practitioners who have bragged that those styles take the shortest time to learn.

BJJ/MMA takes a long time to master, but you can become a competent fighter quickly if you are reasonably athletic. That's because all the conditioning and drills focus directly to success in the ring. You can definitely learn to fight with the traditional martial arts as well, but I just don't think it is as fast.

 

[chinto]

BJJ/MMA takes a long time to master, but you can become a competent fighter quickly if you are reasonably athletic. That's because all the conditioning and drills focus directly to success in the ring. You can definitely learn to fight with the traditional martial arts as well, but I just don't think it is as fast.

hmm in the ring.. yep that is what MMA and BJJ is about. the traditional martial arts are when properly done and trained in not for the ring, but for self defense.

 

[IWishToLearn]

i am a blue belt in go-ju ryu and i always read articles that are so anti-kata.What is with you people kata have been preformed since the begining and they trained for real combat not like us who mostly do it for sport .What makes these so called reality based martial arts think they have it figured out .Kata are not preformed to teach self defense,but are used as a conditioning tool.Also to fine tune technique,teach accuracy and control.After all these methods have been used for hunderds of years and we dismiss them because we think we know it all.I think its a shame to see a black who does not teach kata ,but a guess i am a traditionalist . please fell free to give tour thoughts

I no longer practice traditional kata, but in my experience most people hate kata because they either do not understand what they're doing...period.

 

[IWishToLearn]

BJJ/MMA takes a long time to master, but you can become a competent fighter quickly if you are reasonably athletic. That's because all the conditioning and drills focus directly to success in the ring. You can definitely learn to fight with the traditional martial arts as well, but I just don't think it is as fast.

*Stricken from the record cause I felt it was a knee jerk response when I thought about it.*

 

[jim777]

I love kata

 

[twendkata71]

I have found that he more you study and practice your kata the more you learn about your art. And your movements become more fluid in their execution. You no longer have to think about your counters to attacks. Which is the way it should be. It works for me.

 

[Grenadier]

To me, the three "K's" of Kata, Kumite, and Kihon, all serve to help each other. By improving on one particular aspect, you can improve on the other two.

Thus, someone who works hard on his kata, is going to have a better understanding of the application of the technique in kumite. Someone who strengthens his kihon (basic techniques) will end up strengthening his kata performance as well as his kumite performance. Someone who improves his kumite will have a better understanding of the kata, if he chooses to look at it with an open mind.

These are all pieces of the puzzle, and each piece put in its place, makes it easier to put the other pieces in place, with the ultimate goal being the completion of the puzzle.

It's no surprise to me, that those who place highly in kata competition tend to place highly in kumite as well, and vice versa.

 

[chinto]

I have found that he more you study and practice your kata the more you learn about your art. And your movements become more fluid in their execution. You no longer have to think about your counters to attacks. Which is the way it should be. It works for me.

I agree, that has been my experience as well. you improve on your basics and your technique and footwork and movement and also begin to understand more of what that kata istrying to teach you... and then if you need the technique it seems to just happen when you need it.

 

[kroh]

Many arts have kata (by the same or another name) and kata should be used as a step to better performance. Those who do Kata for kata's sake are sadly missing the point. It is a lesson plan for developing the building blocks of an art. Whether it is combinations from the basics of boxing, to the self defense techniches of kempo, or the flow drills of the arts of the Philipine Islands, a patterned lesson plan designed to teach, ingraine, and pass on combative discipline should be used for those reasons.

There are jewls in those lesson plans, things one can take away and use to great effect once practiced. The lesson plan allows you to remember the lessons for the future. But like any good lesson plan, once you understand what to do... the lesson isn't necessary to the person who has figured out what is trying to be taught. They just need to remember how to pass it on should that become necessary.

A good teacher will remember and practice how to convey the "lesson plan" when necessary. If you are just in the arts because your life depends on it... then like the song that teaches the English alphabet, once it is learned and understood, you no longer need it (although it is very hard to forget).

Best regards,
Walt

 

[chinto]

Many arts have kata (by the same or another name) and kata should be used as a step to better performance. Those who do Kata for kata's sake are sadly missing the point. It is a lesson plan for developing the building blocks of an art. Whether it is combinations from the basics of boxing, to the self defense techniches of kempo, or the flow drills of the arts of the Philipine Islands, a patterned lesson plan designed to teach, ingraine, and pass on combative discipline should be used for those reasons.

There are jewls in those lesson plans, things one can take away and use to great effect once practiced. The lesson plan allows you to remember the lessons for the future. But like any good lesson plan, once you understand what to do... the lesson isn't necessary to the person who has figured out what is trying to be taught. They just need to remember how to pass it on should that become necessary.

A good teacher will remember and practice how to convey the "lesson plan" when necessary. If you are just in the arts because your life depends on it... then like the song that teaches the English alphabet, once it is learned and understood, you no longer need it (although it is very hard to forget).

Best regards,
Walt

yes, in that Kata is there to teach you the system, but even after you have learned the Kata and practiced it for years there is still more hidden there then you have found so far... there are a minumum of 5 techniques 'hidden' in each and every movement of the Kata in the system I study.. My Sensei has studied the kata of the system for more then 30 years and is still seeing things he did not before here and there. there are the combined learning and combat experience of some incredibly skilled and talented fighters that have been distilled over time into the Kata. Do not under estimate what is there if you look hard enough.

 

[twendkata71]

I believe that kata were meant to be the text books of karate that the masters handed down for the students. They are also a puzzle for the student to unlock through constant practice and dedication. And kata incourages self discovery and deep thought.