chinto01
Black Belt
Not sure if I totally agree with you on this. Just because someone is shown the kata and bunkai does not mean they will automatically like kata. What about the people who have been guided down this path and still prefer kumite or self defense over kata?
In the spirit of bushido!
Rob
chinto
Senior Master
all the self defense and other techniques are in the kata... so why would one be preferred over the other. your kumite will improve more from a month of hard work on your kata then a month of sparring.
once you see this you will find it hard to dislike kata. some things at times are nice as a change .. to vary the training time. but Kata is where its at!!
chinto01
Black Belt
I will once again disagree with you. You can explain to people over and over again the things you mentioned above but they just may not like the repetition of kata, they may find it actually boring. The old saying goes "you can bring a horse to water, but you cannot force him to drink." To think that just because you take the time to show people what the bunkai to the form is, and then how they can be applied in different situations is going to make them automatically love kata you may be in for a little disappointment. You may open the door to kata for them but they need to step inside the room for themselves to find out what it is truly about.
In the spirit of bushido!
Rob
kailat
Green Belt
OH HOLY WOW! Where to even begin! I've spent the later part of an hour sifting through and reading the past 14pages of this topic. MAN MY HEAD HURTS!! I've read some very fine points and some great post on this subject. However overall unless I just missed it in the middle of skimming through I didn't see this one valid point discussed. So with that being said Im going to add my OWN 2cents worth here.
Okay I started training Karate way back when around 85' and we studied the forms: Basic 1, 2, 3 I've heard many more traditional names for them but for lack of time I am not going to dig them up. And then we moved into the Chongi / Dosan forms and then the Pinan 1-5 and our advanced forms were Naihanchisho and Bassai-sho and Bassai-dai forms. OKAY now we were a typical modern midwestern karate school mostly into it for the flash and tournament reasons. We had a great base. But that was it. We never were taught the BUNKAI purposes behind the kata. We were taught them for rank requirements and for purpose of competition *point blank*
It wasn't until many years later I joined a TKD club and we studied the Palgwe Forms and I was introduced to DILLMAN (i know hold the remarks) but nonetheless he was the one who opened my eyes on KATA. Up that point I absolutly despised KATA. TO ME "what was the purpose?" Learn em for a promotion, as a structure and then to compete! I had no idea the understanding and principle that went behind them. WOW! So since that day I've had a whole new found respect for traditional KATA.
Nowadays my focus has been on FMA so we dont have perse' KATA but like ANYOS' / Djuru's or Some drilling methods they serve the same purpose as KATA. So on to what i was initially going to write about.. I think for the most part many people get overwhelemed w/ KATA. in some systems i've seen as many as 40 and MORE kata one needs to learn!
I know some masters who know and can perform "every single kata known to man" LOL Im like WHY? isn't it just as well to stick w/ a few kata the basic ones etc.. maybe a handfull meaning 10 or less kata to study a lifetime? WHO NEEDS 100's and 100's of kata in thier aresenal?
This could be partial claim to the "burnout" or STRESS of joining a new style to learn and relearn and master and remaster new forms? I know today if i were to start Karate again i'd probably be honored my rank as where I left off but I'd have to learn new kata all over again.. The ones I once was taught are no longer even taught anymore... What was wrong w/t them? Why discard them for something new? MORE FLASHY? So for my own personal opinion many change the forms for competiton purposes because the older forms no longer has that edge or cannot be reformed to catch the judges eyes anymore so they come up w/ new and improved kata always trying to get one that outdoes the next opponent.
U have Student X who enters every single tournament within a 300mile radius and does the same forms for the past 20+yrs and the judges knows him and he's a common sight. U get a new STUDENT Y who comes in w/ a flashy uniform and a new kata that has all kinds of pretty movements and just wipes your old kata clean.. THEN WHAT? does Student X say its time to give up those kata and just learn new ones for competion to stay w/ the joneses? Or does he just continue to throw away his money for competion performing outdated kata?
PLEASE for those that can answer or help me more understannd this madness please do!!
WHEW!
Coming back a few more thoughts here. One thing we also have to consider today vs. 100+years ago for what KATA was about.
We need to consider this day and age vs. the day and age when many of these great MA masters who created the kata wer in.
Some who really enjoy martial arts may not have the much of an all day to study and train KATA due to FAMILY, FULL TIME JOBS, and the hustle and bustle of everyday life. As sad as it is in American culture compared to the culture of the Asian areas our lifestyles are so much more fast paced and people want to get further quicker. If someone wants to learn to fight or defend themselves why study an ancient art who is based on studying kata and it takes 10 to 20yrs to understand it and pay $100 a month to a school for that loyalty. Then you have the opportunity for less money to get in a reality based MA (RBMA) for less the money and half ifnot less that person can learn to fight and defend themselves. This is not the fault of the System rather the fault of our NATION and sign of the times.. But we already knew that right? Im interested on hearing response on what i had to say for sure.
Okay I started training Karate way back when around 85' and we studied the forms: Basic 1, 2, 3 I've heard many more traditional names for them but for lack of time I am not going to dig them up. And then we moved into the Chongi / Dosan forms and then the Pinan 1-5 and our advanced forms were Naihanchisho and Bassai-sho and Bassai-dai forms. OKAY now we were a typical modern midwestern karate school mostly into it for the flash and tournament reasons. We had a great base. But that was it. We never were taught the BUNKAI purposes behind the kata. We were taught them for rank requirements and for purpose of competition *point blank*
It wasn't until many years later I joined a TKD club and we studied the Palgwe Forms and I was introduced to DILLMAN (i know hold the remarks) but nonetheless he was the one who opened my eyes on KATA. Up that point I absolutly despised KATA. TO ME "what was the purpose?" Learn em for a promotion, as a structure and then to compete! I had no idea the understanding and principle that went behind them. WOW! So since that day I've had a whole new found respect for traditional KATA.
Nowadays my focus has been on FMA so we dont have perse' KATA but like ANYOS' / Djuru's or Some drilling methods they serve the same purpose as KATA. So on to what i was initially going to write about.. I think for the most part many people get overwhelemed w/ KATA. in some systems i've seen as many as 40 and MORE kata one needs to learn!
I know some masters who know and can perform "every single kata known to man" LOL Im like WHY? isn't it just as well to stick w/ a few kata the basic ones etc.. maybe a handfull meaning 10 or less kata to study a lifetime? WHO NEEDS 100's and 100's of kata in thier aresenal?
This could be partial claim to the "burnout" or STRESS of joining a new style to learn and relearn and master and remaster new forms? I know today if i were to start Karate again i'd probably be honored my rank as where I left off but I'd have to learn new kata all over again.. The ones I once was taught are no longer even taught anymore... What was wrong w/t them? Why discard them for something new? MORE FLASHY? So for my own personal opinion many change the forms for competiton purposes because the older forms no longer has that edge or cannot be reformed to catch the judges eyes anymore so they come up w/ new and improved kata always trying to get one that outdoes the next opponent.
U have Student X who enters every single tournament within a 300mile radius and does the same forms for the past 20+yrs and the judges knows him and he's a common sight. U get a new STUDENT Y who comes in w/ a flashy uniform and a new kata that has all kinds of pretty movements and just wipes your old kata clean.. THEN WHAT? does Student X say its time to give up those kata and just learn new ones for competion to stay w/ the joneses? Or does he just continue to throw away his money for competion performing outdated kata?
PLEASE for those that can answer or help me more understannd this madness please do!!
WHEW!
Coming back a few more thoughts here. One thing we also have to consider today vs. 100+years ago for what KATA was about.
We need to consider this day and age vs. the day and age when many of these great MA masters who created the kata wer in.
Some who really enjoy martial arts may not have the much of an all day to study and train KATA due to FAMILY, FULL TIME JOBS, and the hustle and bustle of everyday life. As sad as it is in American culture compared to the culture of the Asian areas our lifestyles are so much more fast paced and people want to get further quicker. If someone wants to learn to fight or defend themselves why study an ancient art who is based on studying kata and it takes 10 to 20yrs to understand it and pay $100 a month to a school for that loyalty. Then you have the opportunity for less money to get in a reality based MA (RBMA) for less the money and half ifnot less that person can learn to fight and defend themselves. This is not the fault of the System rather the fault of our NATION and sign of the times.. But we already knew that right? Im interested on hearing response on what i had to say for sure.
Hi kailat, welcome to the discussion!
What you're describing appears to have been a radical revision of the role of kata that began when Funakoshi and the other Okinawan expatriates who took karate to Japan were setting up shop in the Japanese university system. Remember, the Japanese education and military ministries were the ones who GF 'sold' on karate, packaging it as a group activity for installation of discipline and esprit de corps amongst young men of military age who were already slated to be the cannon fodder for the de-facto military regime's emerging dreams and plans for the conquest of Asia. Having defeated Russia in the previous half-century, the Japanese figured that they had what it took to defeat major Western powers, and karate fit into their plans as a kind of martial calisthenics. Funakoshi obliged them—he was very happy to abet Japanese imperial expansion in any way he could(see Rob Redmond's cold-eyed assessment of GF and his chameleon-like ethics here)—by devising large classes at the University of Tokyo offering mass instruction based on basic kihon performed in large groups and mass line drills (Bill Burgar, in Five Years, One Kata gives more details on how this worked). The problem with kata training in large groups is that you can't do the one-on-one bunkai instruction and training that the Okinawan masters did with their students (the way both GF and Choki Motobu trained for years using just Naihanchi as their curriculum—impossible in the Japanese class situation). Furthermore, as Gennosuke Higaki mentions in his book on the Pinan/Heian kata set and their bunkai, the Okinawans didn't really want to teach the Japanese the deeper applications, and had a kind of gentleman's agreement not to. Rather, they adopted Kano's progressive belt system and recycled the kata as advancement criteria, rather than as applicable combat guides. Many belts, many kata; and by doing that, they in effect revised the 'culture' of karate so that knowledge of kata performance, rather than skill in kata application, became the core of perceived 'expertise' in karate. That seems to be where the 'the more kata you can perform on cue, the better you are' ethic came from. When the Koreans who learned karate in the 1930s in Japan took it back to Korea where it became Taekwondo, they brought home with them the same view of kata that they had been instructed in. It's taken a long time for Japanese karate styles, and even longer for the Korean karate development that goes by the names Taekwondo and Tangsoodo, to recover the Okinawan perspective on kata, and when they did, it happened outside Japan—principally in the UK.
Well, everything you're asking about is the clear next step, in terms of what I was saying before. Kata analysis and application for combat training becomes kata performance for rank promotion becomes... kata spectacle for tournament competition (take a look at that awful XMA special about Matt Mullins that the Discovery Channel did a couple of years ago; it's very instructive about how kata performance, and the MAs in general, have become this kind of weird baroque acrobatics in the wake of their decoupling from fighting application).
And then, of course, when people study karate because they are looking for an effective fighting system, kata look utterly pointless and they hate it... but largely, I believe, because they never learn the whole point of kata, its combat-instruction aspect.
Well, it seems to me that the history of kata in its post-Okinawan phase makes it pretty clear why kata have—or had, at least—become so suspect in people's attitudes. I think that is definitely changing, because of the reemergence of the attitude that karate is first and foremost a combat system. That's even happening in Taekwondo, lumbered as it is with its Olympic foot-tag image...
I personally believe that a realistic kata-centered curriculum could be put together which would equip people with both the understanding and the non-compliant training (the other half of the equation—it's not enough to know, you have to do as well!) to turn out street-competent karateka in a lot less than 100 years. I think this will happen in Japanese karate and, eventually, in its Korean offshoots that I referred to earlier. But there was a long period in which the situation we're talking about came into being, and it's not going be reversed overnight, is the thing...
Meanwhile, for a very optimistic, informative view of the resurgence of the bunkai-based view of kata, check out Iain Abernethy's site (and especially the very high quality, free, downloadable articles here.) Happy reading!
Fiendlover
Black Belt
i agree with you. everyone thinks that they teach what we really need in real life because they think that katas ARE the self defense when they are like u said about technique, accuracy, control, etc.
Why? Because they just want to learn techniques, and what to do for this and that in order to just KICK BUTT!!! WOOOHOOOO!!!! :headbangin:
I was at the regional championships for a recent USA-NKF tournament.
Again, it was not surprising, that the people who did well in their kata competition, (especially those who placed 1st through 3rd) ended up doing just as well in the kumite divisions. If anything, those who placed well in kata, also demonstrated cleaner sparring techniques, while also have a good understanding of body control.
Again, it was not surprising, that the people who did well in their kata competition, (especially those who placed 1st through 3rd) ended up doing just as well in the kumite divisions. If anything, those who placed well in kata, also demonstrated cleaner sparring techniques, while also have a good understanding of body control.
Bodhisattva
Blue Belt
Kata are a very inefficient method of training, IMO. That's why i am personally anti-kata. I never saw a point, personally speaking.
There are very different ways to understand how to use kata in martial arts training. Perhaps you refer to one of them, and not to all of them. I -and other members of this forum- would appreciate if you explain your point of view in more detail.
Hi again
Actually, Bodhisattva, if for "kata" you understand Brandon's ideas about kata, I totally agree with you.
Brandon said:
- Kata are not performed to teach self defense
- Kata are used as a conditioning tool.
- Kata are used to fine tune technique,
- Kata are used to teach accuracy
- Kata are used to teach control
Well, traditional martial arts ("traditional" in the sense of old pre-20th century) is about real fight and self defense. Kata was performed for self defense and was studied for self defense (not just "performed" as an aerobic routine). Nowadays, the so called "traditionalists" merely follow the sport karate founded in mid 20th, and yes, for sport karate, kata makes no sense unless you start believing the five statements listed before, and against those five statements, your criticism is valid.
One of the things which overwhelmingly supports your point here, f., is that, as people have repeatedly brought up in these threads about kata, originally kata were regarded not as components of martial arts, but as martial arts, or styles of martial art, in themselves. Choki Motobu in his writings was very clear and explicit on this point. And for the karate pioneers, karate was for fighting (Motobu himself, Chotoku Kyan and a few others being infamous examples of masters who might have carried this tendency to extremes...) So for them, kata were handbooks of fighting methods: they were the style, not merely part of the style. Geoff Thomspon, the legendary English bouncer/club security expert, with a decade of work in some of Britain's toughest clubs to his credit (as well as being a 6th Dan in Shotokan, dojo owner/operater/chief instructor and cofounder of the British Combat Association), puts it beautifully in his modern classic on street defense, The Pavement Arena:
... for the karateka wishing to pursue knowledge of self-defense, kata are a treasure trove of hidden techniques that can be adapted directly to a street situation... All of the skills developed by kata are necessary when street defense is called for.... It's a matter of perspective—if you want to see them as unrealistic and impractical you will. If however you are perceptive enough to see, you will find that they offer enormous benefits to the street-oriented.
(p.62). This from someone with several hundred documented violent encounters in the course of his decade as doorman/bouncer at clubs in the notoriously violent nightclub scene in Coventry. I'm inclined to believe what he has to say about the relationship between kata techniques, as revealed by careful bunkai, and street violence.
hapkenkido
Blue Belt
i love forms and am alway trying to learn a new form. weather it is from tae kwon do, karate or kung fu. the reason for my love of forms is the style i started out in did not have what i would consider real forms. they were basicaly the same combo in 4 directions. however i cannot stand the forms that are being done in competition today. it to me is not martial art at all. it is gymnastics with martial arts thrown. don't get me wrong the people that do those type of forms have alot of physical conditioning. i just don,t like those type of forms. sorry if have made people mad with that little rant on current forms, it is just mpo.
jkembry
Black Belt
Hate Kata???? This does not make sense to me. Kata in and of itself, is time that I get to work on my form and in some cases it becomes somewhat spiritual for me. Most of the kata I have learned so far in my style (Uechi-ryu) have bunkai associated with them so that there is a practical application that they represent.
So both for the spiritual side and practical side I feel that kata is important and as a side note, I actually enjoy them. I also enjoy watching them performed. When done correctly...they are quite beautiful.
- Jeff -
So both for the spiritual side and practical side I feel that kata is important and as a side note, I actually enjoy them. I also enjoy watching them performed. When done correctly...they are quite beautiful.
- Jeff -
If it's any consolation everything I do in martial arts feels like that!
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