why do people hate kata

[OC Kid]

I personally like kata. Why because of its traditions perfecting the basics. Does it make you a better fighter. No. Ive been told over and over coming up through the ranks that great kata people make great fighters. I havent found that to be true.I maybe mistaken here but all systems have kata of some type. It may not be the trad katas but it will be the fav fighting techniques of the instructor. For example a yellow belt may have to learn a front kick /backfist /body punch combo for that rank. Is it a trad kata no but is it a "kata" I think so.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

That being said, we could even say that boxing has 'kata'. The combos that are thrown, jab cross, jab cross hook, etc. are preset moves or combos that are put together in a certain way.



O.K. it seems to have gone full circle, in my former post I had asked when does kata become KATA, and the good explanation was to just look up the definition - Kata is a set of PREARRANGED forms! Prearranged being the operant term in the definition.

So according to this accepted definition, neither boxing nor wrestling contain Kata!

 

[RRouuselot]

To each his own........

 

[BlackCatBonz]

thank you robert......whether people like it or not, you are a pool of knowledge on these subjects.
thumbs up!

shawn

 

[RRouuselot]

thank you robert......whether people like it or not, you are a pool of knowledge on these subjects.
thumbs up!

shawn

Thanks, but it is actually easier for me to apply what I am talking about face to face rather than to put it into words on a forum. I can see sometimes what I am writing doesn't always come out so clearly on these threads. So I guess what they say is true......."martial arts are for doing not, talking about"

 

[NoSword]

Thanks RRouuselot for posting that :boing1: I've heard and read a lot of arguments for and against forms in the martial arts but its rare to come across one that is so insightful. In some of the books I've read Draeger is referenced but so far I haven't read anything by him other than the article that was just posted. Does anyone have anyone have any titles by him that they would recommend?

 

[RRouuselot]

........ Does anyone have anyone have any titles by him that they would recommend?

Most of his stuff is pretty good. I was lucky enough to get him actually training katori shinto ryu on several video tapes. He was pretty good.

 

[thepanjr]

Karate is not bad beacuse it has katas. Each kata is much harder and more enjoyable then the last. Karate teaches you about life too. Usually i get mad sometimes but when i think of karate i dont get mad. IT helps me so i will never thinks it is bad or even hate it. So don't critize it. People who hate karate are possibly slakers or their parents are forcing them to go to karate. i allways practice at home. So pracyice made perfect. Before iwould slack off and i never passed for 3 years to the next bely until i wanted tom get better at karate.

 

[relytjj]

The reason I personally don't like kata is that I believe that I can spend that time on activities more beneficial to my fighting ability. I do think that doing kata does improve my ability to fight but nowhere near to what some other activities can (sparring, conditioning, etc...). My primary purpose in doing martial arts from the beginning has been to improve conditioning, and learn how to fight (not just a brawler). The kata just doesn't help me advance towards my goals.

 

[thepanjr]

lol katas are the best

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

It has been my experience that when ever I meet with a practitioner that doesn’t like forms/hyung/kata/poomsee, it is because they have never been taught application, or application that makes sense and can be applied in a real situation.



Forms are what makes each system unique, and give each system its identity. I have cross-trained for the last 33 years in several systems. I have trained in Korean, Japanese, Okinawan and Chinese systems. I have trained with different instructors and different organizations that teach the same systems, but teach them in very different ways.



I will use the Japanese terms to explain myself here.



The vast majority of Korean practitioners that I have met and trained with over the years have never been taught anything more the block, kick & punch/strike applications, with general targets for each technique. They have a very rudimentary understanding of application and usually, regardless of rank, have never been taken any deeper in application then the beginners in their system.



In Okinawan and Japanese systems the principles and philosophies get in to deeper detail. The Okinawan systems get deeper then the Japanese systems. Why is this? The answer is that KARATE systems originated in Okinawa. The principles of Bunkai, Henka and Oyo are best understood by those that originated them.



My primary system is Tang Soo Do. The forms incorporated by Hwang Kee in the beginning all came from Okinawa, via Funakoshi’s book, Karate Jutsu. Hwang Kee did not learn the Bunkai, Henka and Oyo, as they were not present in this text. It was explained by Shigiru Egami, one of Funikoshi’s senior most students in his book; Karate-Beyond Technique, that Funakoshi had not taught Bunkai, as he had not learned it prior to teaching in Japan. This is Egami’s statement, not mine.



I studied Isshinryu and Shotokan prior to Tang Soo Do. When I began learning Tang Soo Do I already had a clear understanding of the principles of Bunkai, Henka and Oyo. As I have continued to cross-train I have brought in to Tang Soo Do these principles as they have been taught and understood from older systems that based their training on them.



I was introduced to Kyusho Jutsu and Tuite’ Jitsu in 1986 by an instructor here in Michigan, Sensei Bob White. Since that time, I have trained with many instructors that understand and use Kyusho and Tuite’ in their teaching. I am now teaching seminars on the use of these principles in forms across the country.



When you learn these principles, you develop a much higher level of understanding and appreciation for your forms. These principles can be applied to the forms of EVERY Karate system that I have ever seen.



There are many books and tapes on the market by instructor such as: George Dillman and Vince Morris. Without these reference materials to study and learn from, I would not have the depth of understanding that I do. I have also had the opportunity to participate in seminars given by Sensei Vince Morris. He is an excellent instructor. I have never met Sensei George Dillman.



If you or someone that you know doesn’t enjoy training their forms, it may be that they don’t understand them…



Take the time to learn Kyusho and Tuite’, and implement them in to your forms. They will make sense once you do.



It is important to work with a qualified instructor on these principles…

For guidance, anyone can contact me at any time. ..

Master Jay S. Penfil
7th Degree Black Belt
Tang Soo Do

International Association of Korean Martial Arts
Grand Master Chung Il Kim-President (MDK Pin #475)
3250 West Big Beaver Rd., Suite 110
Troy, MI 48084

[email protected]
248-614-3934, ext. 209-office
248-561-5700-cell
Yours in Tang Soo Do,

 

[eyebeams]

I'll take a crack at why:

1) Bad Bunkai. There are really, really terrible interpretations of kata movements out there. When some schools teach scenario-based self-defense, they try to get the situation to conform to the kata rather than the other way around.

What seems to be in vogue lately are very loose interpretations of movements. This is derided as well. Sometimes I feel like if I stylized the movements used to take out the trash in the morning or eat a sandwich, then said it was a kata, somebody would come up with hidden bunkai for it.

2) Kata substituted for basic fighting skills. This is my own bias: I didn't learn any kata for 5 years. I ran, drilled, grappled and sparred with hard to full contact. Many of these drills were *from* kata, but kata as a sequence weren't taught. The Goju dojo in my area seems to have a similar philosophy: they do kihon and hojo-undo, but little kata until relatively later than most mainstream schools.

I suspect that this is what folks mean when they hear that such and such a person trained for many years but only learned one kata. I bet you that their time was filled up learning how to *fight*, not just do Naihanchi a zillion times.

In any event, I'm convinced that kata cannot really make you a good fighter. Thay can make you a better fighter if you have the base attributes of a fighter. Lots of kata-intensive places don't pass on basic fighting skills before kata, and as kata are among the most rigorously judged parts of a belt test for many schools, they get disproportionate attention.

3) Performance to the point of parody. Many people like to rag on performance oriented martial arts (competition wushu, trickin', XMA), but I have to laud them for being honest. Some of the simple coaching for traditional forms has been exaggerated to the point where a kata just can't work right. The other night on TV I saw a movie about an MA competition where, during trad forms, the competitor dropped into an incredibly low shikko-dachi. Yeah -- everybody normally tries to go low with it, but as impressive as it may be, past a certain point you've destroyed the body mechanics that made it make sense in the first place. Sure enough, this guy couldn't sink his transitions as well as he could those stances (Not because he lacked skill -- it may have been physically impossible) and his low posture required excessive drag from his lead foot. It was pretty -- and totally missed the point of a fighting routine.

4) Poor application drilling: 90% of schools teach bunkai like this:

"OK folks, if someone were to grab you by your throat, you would use this from kata X. Lemme demonstrate and we'll all partner up."

No good. You need to be able to work kata-derived movements just like kihon: on the heavy bag, mitts and pads, against live opponents and with loose shadowboxing. For example, it's fatuous to claim that a "block is a strike" when you've never trained it *as* a strike.

 

[eyebeams]

The tendency to let girls "take over" ju no kata has, in the opinion of many Judo experts, seriously weakened its intrinsic values. This parallels one other such case in Japanese martial arts history. Originally, the naginata, a long halberd-type of bladed weapon, was a formidable weapon in combat. It remained in male samurai hands until the Tokugawa Period (1614 - 1867). As an effective weapon requiring perhaps the least amount of physical strength to make it combatively effective, the weapon was given to samurai women as their combative "baby." Their consequent development of it has brought the naginata jutsu to today’s level of combative degeneration, and it has become largely an aesthetic practice. The nature of women making physical exercise beautiful, graceful, and the like, is similarly affecting the Kodokan ju no kata. even in Japan it has deservedly gained the appellation of odori no kata, or "dance forms," and is the subject of ridicule by most young male Judoists who have never had sufficient experience to realize that this is not true ju no kata.

Sexist idiocy.

 

[searcher]

I personnaly happen to rely on kata in my training. While my wife is at work and I am training they are a critical part of my workouts. along with kihon and bag work. I have actually increased my understanding of fighting by my training in kata. They may or may not have directly effected my fighting abilities, but they have given me a better understanding of it. My techniques have also gotten better by training kata as well.

Kata has its good points and bad points just like everything else in this world. We have and always will have disagreement on what they are or how many good or bad, but such is life.

 

[Gene Williams]

People don't like kata because they don't understand it and, in many cases, have never been exposed to an instructor who understood it and knew how to teach it. Other types see MA as all about fighting and competition and so are very "technique" oriented. They are generally too impatient to learn kata. I suppose it isn't for everyone, but if you are training in a kata based art you should be doing a lot of it.

 

[Andrew Green]

Personally I find the "Everyone that doesn't like it doesn't understand it" defense rather silly. No one that puts it forward ever backs this in any way.

The truth is kata applications are readily available to anyone that wants to look for them through the interenet, books, videos, etc.

And most of them are still silly, but that is not the point.

An argument has no value if it doesn't matter how much research someone does into a subject "they obviously still don't get it"

Truth is there are a lot of people that can readily pull out applications for kata and make them work, but still don't like kata.

As for the argument that kata have been being practiced for 100's of years for combat, how can we know better? Well once again, this is silly, Kata have not been getting practiced in a very large chunk of the martial arts systems in the world. Never have been. Yet these systems have generated many very good fighters.

Some people are very vocal against kata because other people treat it as a magic pill that will teach you how to be a super-warrior without ever having to spar hard. "Practice it every day and you will be able to beat up the big mean jocks that picked on you in school" they say.

And that is just nonsense. Kata alone will not teach you how to fight anymore then playing air guitar will make you a rock star. ANd it doesn't matter how precise your air guitar movements are, it's just not going to happen.

Does it have kata have value? Yes, of course it does.

Does what it has to offer interest everyone? Nope.

Does its benefits often get greatly exagerrated? Yup, all the time.

 

[Gene Williams]

Well, Andrew, you must know what you are talking about...after all, you have created your own style...artyon:

 

[Sapper6]

ahh crap, the infamous kata talk again.

@ andrew

it's not about if kata should be the only fundamental that exists in the MA. kata is only a small portion of the equation.

@ gene

i echo your thoughts. most of the folks who disagree with it, simply won't & never will understand it's value.

point being, you like kata, do it and do it alot. you don't like kata...? who cares.

 

[Andrew Green]

Well, Andrew, you must know what you are talking about...after all, you have created your own style...artyon:

Did no such thing.

 

[Gene Williams]

:moon: Did,too!:boxing: