Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I guess I don't understand why you want to build traffic that has nothing to do with the topic. Is it a purely business decision?
Who was Arnisador?
- Thread starter Kane
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I guess I don't understand why you want to build traffic that has nothing to do with the topic. Is it a purely business decision?
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
What is your definition of "kill the site"? Are you talking about business viability? Would you need to close the site if that traffic went away?
Or is it just that things would be slower?
I agree with Xue, I think if these specific areas were done away with, some traffic would go immediately. In my opinion, it's traffic that we shouldn't want, on a site that claims to be about martial arts.
But eventually traffic would return, as the site became more focused on martial arts. I wonder how many people have wandered away because of the arguments? Those people who just wanted martial arts talk might come back and replace the argumentative Study and political discussions. Maybe more people would become paid members, if the site came back to focus on the martial topics and got rid of the extra stuff. I think all the negative distractions might be making people reluctant to pay money to be a member. Aggravation doesn't get money, in my book.
I think Martialtalk is becomming an angry place. I think much of that anger originates in the Study and the political discussions and whatnot, and it bleeds into the rest of it.
It costs me several hundred dollars a month to pay for the server and bandwidth, and the support team that keeps the site running. Additional costs go into domain names, software fees, etc. If I did this out of my pocket, MT would have shut down a long time ago.
The site can focus on martial arts. It doesn't want to. The sections are there, use them. If we removed the study, what will happen is the politics will be all over the site and we will spend a lot of time dealing with it, with people again screaming about over moderation, freedom of speech and what not.
I have offered to remove the study from the view of those who do not wish to see it. Since it seems that a fair number of members do enjoy it, why should I punish them?
Ironically, we see the most reports from the study, and the TKD area. Haven't seen 1 from any of the supporting member areas. Maybe the key here is, go pay only.
If MartialTalk is becoming an angry place, that is because the members are angry. What would you have me do, to make them all happy?
The site can focus on martial arts. It doesn't want to. The sections are there, use them. If we removed the study, what will happen is the politics will be all over the site and we will spend a lot of time dealing with it, with people again screaming about over moderation, freedom of speech and what not.
I have offered to remove the study from the view of those who do not wish to see it. Since it seems that a fair number of members do enjoy it, why should I punish them?
Ironically, we see the most reports from the study, and the TKD area. Haven't seen 1 from any of the supporting member areas. Maybe the key here is, go pay only.
If MartialTalk is becoming an angry place, that is because the members are angry. What would you have me do, to make them all happy?
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
it's your site, you do with it as you feel is best, of course.
I don't know what to add, and I don't have all the answers. But I think this site is going in a bad direction, and I would like to see it not go there.
I've given my thoughts, and I'll step out of the way.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Questions and only answer if you want to or can based on policy and rules, this is not a demand.
How many members of MT post in the study as opposed to those that do not?
Of that how many would you call regulars in the study as opposed to the occasional poster?
How many paying members post in the study as opposed to those that do not?
Of that how many would you call regulars in the study as opposed to the occasional poster?
Of the rather long list of current members how many are actually active?
Has the number of paying members gone up in the last year or down?
What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
Let me explain.
No one posts on an dead site. Why is the FMA area dead? Because it's dead. People post, get no reply, they move on. If you visit a forum and never see anything new, you eventually visit less and less, eventually you don't come back. Posts = traffic, traffic = posts. If you have 1, you can build the other. If you have neither, you're DOA.
You want the CMA area to grow? Post more on it. Bring new information up, keep old yet interesting topics going, get others involved and it can grow.
Arnisidor's long standing complaint was that MT was nothing but chat n fluff. He said this back in 2003. His art posts are dwarfed by his non art posts. (most active in TLP thread 7,187 posts compared to 2,453 in General MA his next most active area). He's a knowledgeable black belt yet only made 2,070 posts in 9 years in the FMA areas. This isn't an unusual comparison, so please don't think I'm singling him out here. We have several high ranked kenpo instructors on here, yet they post rarely. We've had several high ranked instructors from numerous arts, they are regular lurkers, some have been since year 1, yet they rarely post.
Why, I don't know. I can't make them post. If they did, even a few posts each per month in their areas of expertize, we'd rapidly skyrocket to over 1,000 posts per day again.
But I can only ask white belt questions so many times before people tune me out or start thinking I'm an idiot because I asked something last month and 'obviously' didn't get it.
Staff have tried to engage people and a serious technical thread will get 20 views and 2-3 comments. A piss up thread will get hundreds, generate a dozen reports and tie up hours of our time we could be doing something productive.
Bottom line is, you want more art talk, make it so. Bump topics, start new ones, use the tools offered to tune out the garbage and help us to help you.
Or don't. If the site grinds to a halt at some point in the future, I'll either sell it, archive it or just drop it and get back half my day and worry less about hackers, crackers and flamers.
See italicized comments please.
I 2nd this! I've posted threads in the Kenpo area. Depending on the topic, a few different things will happen. You'll get a page or 2 or replies, then it dies. Point in case, a recent thread I started in the Kenpo area on the knife. 2 pages, asked another question, to date, no more replies. Why? I actually read a comment on the Kenponet. It was in response to a question asked about Mike Pick. Know what the reply was? Mike Pick is a private guy, who doesn't want much said about what he does on the internet. So now, you gotta watch what you say, otherwise you wont get any replies. Amazing.
On the other hand...I've started threads on high rank and multiple arts, it led to a few people getting singled out, some feelings got hurt, mostly the feelings of the followers of that person, and so the story goes......
You'll also get some high ranking Kenpoists, who shall remain nameless, but they are/were members here, who post, but Godforbid you disagree...shiver at the thought of that...with them, and boom...they run away. Oh, so we can't disagree with someone now? Simply amazing. Because we....no, let me clarify....because some dont bow down and kiss their ***, they get pissed off and leave.
Its frustrating...VERY frustrating. I sit during free time at work, and try to drum up new Kenpo topics. There are Kenpo people still here....please, feel free to start a thread or 2 or 3.
Eliminate politics. I could run the site off an old C=64.
I trained Modern Arnis under Tim Hartman. Tim runs 1 of oh, 5+ Arnis orgs. Good luck getting the other orgs here though. I personally invited several of the heads. Few came, none stayed. Arnis politics, claims of favortism, etc. We've invited numerous Kenpo org heads. We have a few who stayed, most never even replied to the invites. We set up an area specific for them, but it sat there with little traffic other than people asking questions and getting silence back. Guys, no one here feels the lack of art topics more than me. But if folks won't use it, my hands are tied. And that frustrates me daily.
I trained Modern Arnis under Tim Hartman. Tim runs 1 of oh, 5+ Arnis orgs. Good luck getting the other orgs here though. I personally invited several of the heads. Few came, none stayed. Arnis politics, claims of favortism, etc. We've invited numerous Kenpo org heads. We have a few who stayed, most never even replied to the invites. We set up an area specific for them, but it sat there with little traffic other than people asking questions and getting silence back. Guys, no one here feels the lack of art topics more than me. But if folks won't use it, my hands are tied. And that frustrates me daily.
I've been here going on seven years. In that time I've seen the site grow from a relatively small site to the size it is now. The more non-art sub-sections that have been added the larger the membership seems to have gotten. Much (half?) of my time here has been as a member of staff or as a mentor and I've seen the work load in the staff section dealing with problematic posts/posters ebb and flow. One of my fellow staff members pointed out that some things are ever as the tide (I'm paraphrasing, he's much more eloquent) in the rise and fall of trouble, discord and kumbaya moments. Right now the mood on the site really seems to reflect a general mood in the "real world". There is nothing... did I say nothing?... that staff can do to make everything all better. Close the non-art sections? Half would cheer and the other half would scream. Hell, look at the hissy fit folks threw over the last rep reset. Folks, we're all adults. For the most part we're all really great people. We're a community... by choice. As you have the crazy neighbor in your neighborhood we have them here. Ignore them, report them and ignore them what ever. Ultimately, the site is going to go as the majority of members go. Find the folks that truly piss you off and put them on ignore or learn to chuckle at the "crazy neighbors" antics and move along without giving them too much credence. Thanks for reading my little rant. Now, if you'll excuse me I hear a bottle of Jameson's and a pot of coffee calling my name.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
There was once a serious sanshou site that died off. But it was because it was populated by serious sanshou fighters that were training too much to post...but it was nice while it lasted... and likely the only site I know that died for a good reason I think it still exists but I don't think there has been a post on it in a year.
The problem with CMA is the nature of the beast. Those that train with traditional sifus do not talk much about it and to come on MT and yak is fun at first but eventually you start getting this nagging feeling that it is just wrong and you really should shut up. And in my case I am pretty sure I lost a sifu (who was more computer savvy than I thought) because I was yakking on MT and I am not all that happy about that. There are other issues I the CMA section as well as just about any other MA section on the site (you can only answer the same question or argue the same point so many times, etc.) but I really dont want to turn this into a flame post that you will eventually have to lock so ..
And he is not completely wrong, IMO. There is a lot of fluff but not all from what I see.... but I see the point that you and MJS are trying to make here about such things I just dont have the energy anymore Heck I think Ive posted more in this thread today than I have in a long time
Yes but aren't hackers, crackers and flammers fun :barf:
This is making a bit more sense to me now, Thanks
Lastly, as I said before Arni will be missed, as others have been and others will be as they leave MT. :asian:
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
now DO YOU SEE!!!! :tantrum:That right there is the WHOLE problem with MT...... people won't share
Where is MY Jameson's and coffee HUH!!!!!
I try to start at least 1-2 new threads a week, although sometimes it doesnt happen. I'll also cruise old threads, bumping ones that looked good, in hopes to start more discussion on an oldie but goodie.
Today, I tried to bump that Kenpo thread I mentioned, and started 2 new threads. I think that if people made an effort to start a new thread here and there, in art areas, if thats what they feel is lacking, then thats half the battle. Hell, I've even gone into art sections I dont train in, and started threads. You dont have to study the art to ask a question. Of course, if its a legit question, thats one thing. If its trolling, well.....
Today, I tried to bump that Kenpo thread I mentioned, and started 2 new threads. I think that if people made an effort to start a new thread here and there, in art areas, if thats what they feel is lacking, then thats half the battle. Hell, I've even gone into art sections I dont train in, and started threads. You dont have to study the art to ask a question. Of course, if its a legit question, thats one thing. If its trolling, well.....
I miss most of the people who leave, especially when they've been here a long time and start to feel like family.
I'm taking a 7-10 day leave shortly. I'll have no phone nor internet access for that time period. I need the break.
I could do what some sites do, purge old threads regularly. But, some info you never get back. Then again, how many people look through the old topics I wonder.
The issue is, some want to talk politics, some want to talk art, and some just want to talk, and others just read. We've got an active group in the TKD area, active groups in the others would be great. But......you hit it on the head. Art politics, the "I cant talk about that here" and so on kill alot of good topics. So it goes. I shut the Study down after the 2008 election, and got hammered in hate mail over it. In the end, no matter what I do, it'll piss off folks, cost us members, cost us money, and create ill feelings. I'm in a no win position it feels like.
I'm taking a 7-10 day leave shortly. I'll have no phone nor internet access for that time period. I need the break.
I could do what some sites do, purge old threads regularly. But, some info you never get back. Then again, how many people look through the old topics I wonder.
The issue is, some want to talk politics, some want to talk art, and some just want to talk, and others just read. We've got an active group in the TKD area, active groups in the others would be great. But......you hit it on the head. Art politics, the "I cant talk about that here" and so on kill alot of good topics. So it goes. I shut the Study down after the 2008 election, and got hammered in hate mail over it. In the end, no matter what I do, it'll piss off folks, cost us members, cost us money, and create ill feelings. I'm in a no win position it feels like.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Your damed if you do and your damned of you don't
Take a break... some of my best vacations were working on a tree farm in the mountains of Pa with no computers within 50 miles or more and absolutly no one (other than family) had the phone number of the cabin on the property
but before you go
WHERE'S MY Jameson's and coffee?
I do A LOT....Especially some of the non-sensical threads that I subscribed to...It provides a laugh and reminds me of happier times..
I dont know the secret to sucess but I know the secret to failure, Trying To Please Everybody....
It may also be the board is reflecting other things too. I think several of my own posts have been harder sounding than I intended them to be. This isn't because Im angry at another person or categorically intolerant of their views. I've generally been better at being straightforward than I am at being tactful. There have been a number of strains in my own life (unrelated to MT) that have worn me down a bit which in turn has worn down my "internal tact filter" that wasn't working that well to begin with.
Not saying that to make an excuse but I do want to apologize to anyone that I may have hurt or thought I was snipping at them.
A lot of people around me have been facing some significant changes in their life, not all of them good. Its possible that people here on MT are facing similar things, and that we are also seeing similar strains through their posts.
You know I hate to see people leave specially familiar names because there is a certain reassurance there and also when good MA people leave, they do take a lot of MA knowledge and expertise with them which was kind of why I joined initially..
I do not know if the study is central in this decision and but I would worry that anyone leaving a forum as a protest is not well versed in protests! For tomorrow they will be forgotten except in skeleton threads like this one was looking all sepia and worn.
I am not such a fan of the Study and but then I am not from the US and am not wise to US politics. Nor do I enjoy pontificating dogma and rhetoric that is de rigeur on there haha.. Still, personally I make my own space here as I would on any other social site. Perhaps I dine here a little lighter than before when the food is not to my taste and but then I would come back when there is more tasty on offer
Yes I think the site has changed even since I have been here and but that is good, no? Otherwise as Suke has said, we would all be debating the same old stuff over ad infinitum.
To Michael, I totally understand your frustration and but can I ask please if you were so inclined, how would you like the site to be? Exclusively MA? I would envisage an initial drop off in visitors then and I wonder how the arts areas could be ramped up to compensate for the lost traffic? In the Aikido area there are tumbleweeds that would need to be taken out first! haha.. And but then that is up to the posters. If I were that bothered I would surely post more stuff there and kickstart it, no?
Me, I kind of like it how it is.. [or maybe I am resigned to it haha] I like my music and stuff and for me this is another way to meet nice ppl who I know at least I will have one thing in common with to some extent: a love or, or passing interest in MA. Anything else is just extra sprinkles.
Jenna x
I do not know if the study is central in this decision and but I would worry that anyone leaving a forum as a protest is not well versed in protests! For tomorrow they will be forgotten except in skeleton threads like this one was looking all sepia and worn.
I am not such a fan of the Study and but then I am not from the US and am not wise to US politics. Nor do I enjoy pontificating dogma and rhetoric that is de rigeur on there haha.. Still, personally I make my own space here as I would on any other social site. Perhaps I dine here a little lighter than before when the food is not to my taste and but then I would come back when there is more tasty on offer
Yes I think the site has changed even since I have been here and but that is good, no? Otherwise as Suke has said, we would all be debating the same old stuff over ad infinitum.
To Michael, I totally understand your frustration and but can I ask please if you were so inclined, how would you like the site to be? Exclusively MA? I would envisage an initial drop off in visitors then and I wonder how the arts areas could be ramped up to compensate for the lost traffic? In the Aikido area there are tumbleweeds that would need to be taken out first! haha.. And but then that is up to the posters. If I were that bothered I would surely post more stuff there and kickstart it, no?
Me, I kind of like it how it is.. [or maybe I am resigned to it haha] I like my music and stuff and for me this is another way to meet nice ppl who I know at least I will have one thing in common with to some extent: a love or, or passing interest in MA. Anything else is just extra sprinkles.
Jenna x
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
is there not enough active members, keeping the martial discussions going, that people will come back for that? Do we need to draw them in with a high post count, when many of those posts have nothing to do with martial arts? When I drop in, I see many many non-martial arts posts, and I just ignore them. In fact, I'm often disappointed, because I think, Hey, maybe there's some good stuff going on. Then I see it's just more bickering.
yes, i've seen this done many times, and I've tried to get intelligent threads going as well. They get a page or two and die off, while carnage gets 20 pages of discussion and bickering. I don't get it either. I guess we can't seem to walk away from a stupid argument.
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