Who was Arnisador?

[MJS]

Jeff requested his acct. closed. Alternate suggestions were offered, and were declined. He will not be able to respond to any posts here.

 

[Flying Crane]

bummer.

looks to me like the growing proliferation of political and social arguments is inevitably poisoning this community. I think it's only a matter of time before more members will just get tired of it and wander off, never to return.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Nothing stopped him from spending more time in the art sections and contributing there, same as nothing stops anyone else from doing the same.

 

[MJS]

I'm not into politics...never have, never will. That being said, I usually stay out of the political areas, other than to mod them, if necessary. The Study...unless its a topic that interests me, the above applies. We do not force anyone to post in a particular area. If people dont have the self control to avoid that area, if it bothers them that much, they can request Bob to remove their access to it.

As Bob said, nothing is stopping people from posting in the art sections. I'll also add, that people will have varying opinions, especially in politics. Its important to respect other opinions, even if you disagree. IMO, I think alot of times, people let way too much bother them. Here its easy...place the person on ignore. But in RL, there is no ignore button. You just deal with it, and move along. What do people do if they disagree with a co-worker? Quit their job?

Its a forum people...and odds are, there is a good chance you'll never meet half the people you 'talk' with. Post, and contribute to the forum in a positive matter. That is what keeps the place going.

 

[Flying Crane]

true.

however, with your own increased activity in the Study, it honestly begins to look like this forum is really designed to be a platform for you to deliver your political and social message, and the martial discussion is just camoflage.

I could see where people don't want to be affiliated with that, and simply avoiding the Study no longer is enough.

What is this site for? Is it really for martial discussion, or has politics taken over the top priority? Why not open a completely separate and unconnected site for political and social discussions, and keep Martialtalk for martial talk?

edit: my comments in this post were in response to Bob's comment, not MJS

 

[MJS]

true.

however, with your own increased activity in the Study, it honestly begins to look like this forum is really designed to be a platform for you to deliver your political and social message, and the martial discussion is just camoflage.

I could see where people don't want to be affiliated with that, and simply avoiding the Study no longer is enough.

What is this site for? Is it really for martial discussion, or has politics taken over the top priority? Why not open a completely separate and unconnected site for political and social discussions, and keep Martialtalk for martial talk?

edit: my comments in this post were in response to Bob's comment, not MJS

I know this wasn't directed at me, and I dont want to speak for Bob, but I'll toss in my .02. IMO, I wouldnt say its his political message, so to speak, but more of just an opinion. I mean, I could start a rant/rave thread about healthcare, what this Senator did, what Obama is doing, etc., as a vent. Maybe I'm just reading Bobs posts differently. Again, I dont frequent those areas that much.

As for the various sections....personally, I like the diversity we have here. This forum is, IMO, first and foremost, a MA forum. The art sections outnumber the political sections. I like the other areas, and others may as well, as it gives a break from the art discussions. Kinda like taking a new route to work, changing up your weight routine, etc. You're still posting and discussing, just in a different field.

 

[Xue Sheng]

bummer.

looks to me like the growing proliferation of political and social arguments is inevitably poisoning this community. I think it's only a matter of time before more members will just get tired of it and wander off, never to return.

I do see this as a possibility, but what I think you will see is a conveyor belt of people with old timers getting fed up and leaving only to be replaced by the next generation. Good or bad, that’s life on and off MT I guess, just on the internet things seem to go a lot faster.

If people dont have the self control to avoid that area, if it bothers them that much, they can request Bob to remove their access to it.

Well being one that apparently did not have the "self control" I did ask Bob to block it and he did. The problem I was having with my "self control" and the study was I would read it with no intension of responding and then after reading a few pages of what was utter lack of knowledge on the topic being discussed I would comment and then find myself in where I did not want to be so I had Bob block it for me and I am rather happy about it, albeit still apparently lacking the "self control" to do it myself. But you know repeat something that is way off the mark to me in the real world and I will respond to that as well but there is less chance of an argument occuring because face to face people tend to listen more and hide behind the web less.

What do people do if they disagree with a co-worker? Quit their job?

There is a WORLD of difference between the wild and wacky world of the web both on and off MT and the real world I am now sitting here typing in.

I enjoy discussing Martial Arts on MT but in the real world I hardly mention it at all. I have never once, outside of the MA people I know personally (and only once to one of them after a Kung Fu theater slow motion fight), ever uttered the words "You have offended my family and you have offended the Shaolin Temple" not even in a meeting at work no matter how upset I may have been at the time. The only major MA discussions I get into in the real world are with my Sifu and one or 2 of his other students. And there have been a few times I have taken a break form MT and even had my account closed but I came back everytime so far. But I do know I am posting less than I use to and that trend will likely continue.

Of course that will make some rather happy

But....

This is Bob's house and if we are here we must follow Bob's rules but I honestly feel that responding to long time posters (founding member) leaving in this way is simply taking it way to lightly. But then MT is not an island and many of the MA related Web pages I use to go to are either gone or changed so much they are no longer worth going to. MT has, so far, not changed that much... yet.

Hell I haven’t been here as long as the last 3 posters and arni and I have seen major changes, both good and bad, on MT in my time here.

And although I am not asking for a list, explanation or questioning why I have to say I have seen people here get banned that surprised me since they were rather knowledgeable in there area or they just leave on thier own and yet people who were/are argumentative and clueless go on like the energizer bunny.

But admittedly (and sadly) I have no solutions


Arni, you will be missed

 

[Bob Hubbard]

true.

however, with your own increased activity in the Study, it honestly begins to look like this forum is really designed to be a platform for you to deliver your political and social message, and the martial discussion is just camoflage.

I could see where people don't want to be affiliated with that, and simply avoiding the Study no longer is enough.

What is this site for? Is it really for martial discussion, or has politics taken over the top priority? Why not open a completely separate and unconnected site for political and social discussions, and keep Martialtalk for martial talk?

edit: my comments in this post were in response to Bob's comment, not MJS

I haven't trained since 2005 due to injury. My ability to contribute to the art sections is minimal these days.

I'm sorry that you believe that 9 years of effort in building one of the largest martial arts communities around was just a ruse so that I could rant on politics.

My post count is 2.83% of the total count. Please, feel free to drown out my insanity as Arni put it by posting serious martial arts content, something he hasn't done here since 2003.

The site is for martial arts discussion. It'd be nice to see those sections boosted, however I can't do it on my own, and I can't force the people who are active and who do know the stuff to do so.

Perhaps it's time for me to leave as well.

 

[Flying Crane]

I haven't trained since 2005 due to injury. My ability to contribute to the art sections is minimal these days.

I am sorry for that. Really I am, I mean that whole heartedly. That would make me crazy.

I'm sorry that you believe that 9 years of effort in building one of the largest martial arts communities around was just a ruse so that I could rant on politics.

I think the forum is becomming something that perhaps it was originally never intended to be. I personally don't see it as a positive change. I think that Martialtalk ought to go back to what I suspect was it's original intention: the discussion of martial arts and martial arts related topics. Period.

If people really want political discussion, if that's really important to some people including yourself, then I suggest a forum that is completely separate and not linked to Martialtalk. That's my suggestion.

I think it's human nature to be unable to separate different faces of a person, once you've seen those faces. I don't participate in the Study, because it is an aggravating place. But I've seen many things expressed there that I absolutely disagree with, and I think they are often expressed thru a lack of solid information. I also see things posted there that make me think that the poster is really just a miserable bastard. I have actually lost respect for people because of what they post in the Study, and it's then hard for me to engage in martial discussion with them. To me, once I've seen what I believe are their true colors, I can't ignore that. And so the rest of the forums become poisoned.

Maybe I'm too sensitive about that. Maybe I'm fairly typical. But either way, I think it affects the rest of the forums in a negative way. I think the Study is a source of irritation, aggravation, and even malice that then creeps into the other forums.

I dunno. Maybe it's a good way to figure out who's who...

The site is for martial arts discussion. It'd be nice to see those sections boosted, however I can't do it on my own, and I can't force the people who are active and who do know the stuff to do so.

There are a lot of people here, and the discussions do go on. It is for the members to boost it or contribute or make it happen.

Perhaps it's time for me to leave as well.

Or just step back and take a look at where things are going.

 

[MJS]

What surprises me is this...I've often seen more posts in non art sections, by the martial artists here, than in the art sections. Now, heres the question...if we did away with the study, the political forums, etc. would those same people start posting in their respective art area? Makes me wonder, because I rarely see it now.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

When I closed the Study a while back, site traffic took a huge hit, many of the people left. Dissenting views are welcome. I'll gladly remove access to anyone wanting to miss it completely. I'm not sure what I can do otherwise.

 

[Sukerkin]

Fair points in the sequence of points above. The Art based forums do seem quiet in the main, especially the sword related ones :lol:. I suppose in part that is because once you have espoused your thoughts on a certain arts pro's and cons, it is seldom that you revisit those thoughts again. Whereas there is always something new to chatter about in the media, entertainment, politics, economics and religion fields. Oddly, mind you, given that other 'social' areas are active, the History sections seem quiet too?

 

[Flying Crane]

When I closed the Study a while back, site traffic took a huge hit, many of the people left. Dissenting views are welcome. I'll gladly remove access to anyone wanting to miss it completely. I'm not sure what I can do otherwise.

I personally believe that as long as it remains a part of Martialtalk, it will have a negative impact on the site. How many times has it become an issue for reconsideration? Every six months or so?

Why not make the satellite forums a part of this one, and get rid of the non-martial stuff? I never really understood why there needed to be a separate Kenpotalk, when Martialtalk has specific kenpo sections as well. COuld that not be integrated back into Martialtalk and centralize it all? Keep that traffic in one place, instead of spreading it thin? Are there other sites, like Kenpotalk, that could also be brought back in here?

If the traffic drops when the study goes away, is that traffic even wanted here? If it's largely off-topic to the main focus, then I'd say it didn't really belong in the first place. What's the real focus? Is it martial arts? if so, then let's keep it that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What surprises me is this...I've often seen more posts in non art sections, by the martial artists here, than in the art sections. Now, heres the question...if we did away with the study, the political forums, etc. would those same people start posting in their respective art area? Makes me wonder, because I rarely see it now.

When I closed the Study a while back, site traffic took a huge hit, many of the people left. Dissenting views are welcome. I'll gladly remove access to anyone wanting to miss it completely. I'm not sure what I can do otherwise.

OK you are both of the site, I am just a poster so I can't really answer any of these questions, and I wish I could but I can't. However maybe it is something for the site to think about and find an answer to could be MT should be PT, who knows.

Could be the study is what most want
Could be that the study pushes a lot of people wanting to discuss MA away
Could be that when it is closed the people that post there go, and if you wait long enough the MA discussions will start back up
Could be that MAist don't really want to discuss MA that much
Could be any number of thnigs that may or may not be impossible to figure out
Could be I have no idea what so ever. (I am going with this one by the way)

Could be any number of things I do not have the stats for to figure out and to be honest I don’t want them either. But you have them, it’s your site and if you are happy with it then who cares what anyone else thinks. But if your not then it is time to think long and hard as to why you’re not happy. That is beyond the just being plain sick and tired of whiny users like me.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Kenpotalk doesn't want to be rolled back in to MT.
FMAT isn't my site so doesn't count.
The MMA site was dropped from non-use a while back, and I recently closed off the WNY stand alone for the same reason.

Xue hit it on the head, all those points are valid.

End result, you can't please everyone. We can't force anyone to post in any particular place. The politics and off topic areas get the most dynamic growth. Until I stopped counting posts, the Last Person thread was the most active place on the site. People left over that.

I've considered splitting off the politics but when I took a vote, it was pretty much shot down.

 

[Flying Crane]

Kenpotalk doesn't want to be rolled back in to MT.
FMAT isn't my site so doesn't count.
The MMA site was dropped from non-use a while back, and I recently closed off the WNY stand alone for the same reason.

Xue hit it on the head, all those points are valid.

End result, you can't please everyone. We can't force anyone to post in any particular place. The politics and off topic areas get the most dynamic growth. Until I stopped counting posts, the Last Person thread was the most active place on the site. People left over that.

I've considered splitting off the politics but when I took a vote, it was pretty much shot down.

Then I predict that eventually this site will have so little martial discussion that you will need to change the name to Politicaltalk.

As Xue said, it is your choice ultimately. I think the site is being harmed. I think it is being turned into something that I at least am not happy about. I guess if the masses like it better that way, then I will be the one who needs to leave. I understand that.

 

[Flying Crane]

Kenpotalk doesn't want to be rolled back in to MT.

well, it seems like there is very little traffic over there, compared to over here. Is it worth keeping a separate site for that? And I see the political arguments are starting to creep in over there as well, so how long will it be before that site is just like this one?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Posts in top 20 forums last 30 days (art) (nonart)
Tae-Kwon-Do 1274
The Study 1244
General Martial Arts Talk 912
US Political Discussion and Debate 803
(staff) 415
General Self Defense 282
The Urusai Bar & Grill 225
The Locker Room 221
MMA 201
Members in Motion 190
Kenpo / Kempo - General 167
Law Enforcement 166
Wing Chun 153
The Comedy Cafe 146
Muay Thai 143
The Rec Room (Sports and Entertainment) 139
Photography 123
Meet & Greet 122
The Hall of Remembrance (Memorials) 106 (I count this as either)
MT, After Dark 102

Art posts = 3,610
Non Art posts = 3,418

My post count for the same time period was 532. 7%.

New Topics last 30 days (art)
MMA 111
(staff) 68
The Study 59
Tae-Kwon-Do 59
US Political Discussion and Debate 39
General Martial Arts Talk 36
FMA From Around the Web 36
(staff) 26
The Locker Room 25
The Urusai Bar & Grill 24
Muay Thai 19
The Comedy Cafe 15
Photography 14
Random Acts of Sanity 14
The Hall of Remembrance (Memorials) 12 (not counting)
Health Tips for the Martial Artist 12
General Self Defense 12
Wing Chun 11
Meet & Greet 11
Hapkido 11

Art topics = 318
non-art topics = 284

My thread count was 73 topics out of 614. (12%) (only a bot was greater)


My argument here is, decreasing the non-art sections won't improve the art sections, it'l just kill the site. Improve the art sections, and you drwon out the 'fluff'.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

well, it seems like there is very little traffic over there, compared to over here. Is it worth keeping a separate site for that? And I see the political arguments are starting to creep in over there as well, so how long will it be before that site is just like this one?

Politics on KT are different, most ignore it. I introduced that, and additional paid features to try and build traffic. So far, it's stagnant.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Posts in top 20 forums last 30 days (art) (nonart)
Tae-Kwon-Do 1274
The Study 1244
General Martial Arts Talk 912
US Political Discussion and Debate 803
(staff) 415
General Self Defense 282
The Urusai Bar & Grill 225
The Locker Room 221
MMA 201
Members in Motion 190
Kenpo / Kempo - General 167
Law Enforcement 166
Wing Chun 153
The Comedy Cafe 146
Muay Thai 143
The Rec Room (Sports and Entertainment) 139
Photography 123
Meet & Greet 122
The Hall of Remembrance (Memorials) 106 (I count this as either)
MT, After Dark 102

Art posts = 3,610
Non Art posts = 3,418

My post count for the same time period was 532. 7%.

New Topics last 30 days (art)
MMA 111
(staff) 68
The Study 59
Tae-Kwon-Do 59
US Political Discussion and Debate 39
General Martial Arts Talk 36
FMA From Around the Web 36
(staff) 26
The Locker Room 25
The Urusai Bar & Grill 24
Muay Thai 19
The Comedy Cafe 15
Photography 14
Random Acts of Sanity 14
The Hall of Remembrance (Memorials) 12 (not counting)
Health Tips for the Martial Artist 12
General Self Defense 12
Wing Chun 11
Meet & Greet 11
Hapkido 11

Art topics = 318
non-art topics = 284

My thread count was 73 topics out of 614. (12%) (only a bot was greater)


My argument here is, decreasing the non-art sections won't improve the art sections, it'l just kill the site. Improve the art sections, and you drwon out the 'fluff'.

Just as a clarification for me, if no one else, I did not get the impression from any of this discussion that this was a shotgun blast and the non-arts sections as much as targeted at the Study and possibly US Political Discussion and Debate sections all by themselves which then removes 2047 from your top forums last 30 day total of 3418 for non art leaving you 1371 non-art and for your New Topics in the last 30 days that takes out 98 from your non-art total of 284 leaving you with 186 if Study and the US Political Discussion and Debate were not here.

for total posts of 4981 and 504 respectively


However it is likely, at least for a period of time that your post counts would drop in other areas due to some (not all) that post mainly in the Study and the US Political Discussion and Debate leaving MT. But then I would not be surprised if the post counts dropped in the arts section as the Study and the US Political Discussion and Debate increase