Which is best to start with? (tai chi/kung fu)

[Bruce7]

I'm totally confused. With defence and not into the hitting and fighting. It sounds like you have a bunch of goals that really don't match here.

• Discipline and self-control comes from working hard at something. You'll gain this regardless of what you do so long as you work hard at it and stay focus. You don't need martial arts for this. Just do something that gives you a good challenge and enjoyment.

• Defence - includes fighting. It's not made of only fighting, but it does include it. Separating the fighting part will make your defence weaker. The path that you are currently looking at is taking martial arts and not being able to actually use it for defence. If this is the path you want to take, then I would recommend you take a Martial Arts with a lot of movement and that will accomplish your first goal. Then find a good self-defence class to tak and that will satisfy your second goal.

If you really want to use martial arts for self-defence then you have to spar, which means hitting and getting hit. There's just no way around it. So a self-defence class is your best choice for your second goal.

I disagree.
Aikido would give her everything she wants without hitting.

 

[Xue Sheng]

After you have learned "If you don't move, I won't move." It will be very difficult for you to learn "You have to give before you can take."

It's OK to be conservative when you are old. It's not OK for you to be conservative when you are young. IMO, it's not proper for a young guy to act like a 80 years old man.

Well that is rather insulting to just about every serious taijiquan person isn't it. You obviously never meant up with my Yang Shifu or someone like Tung Hu Ling, or from what I have seen of him, Eddie Wu.

You are, as per usual, talking about things you do not understand as it applies to taijiquan. Soft does not mean sponge or pure cotton. Taiji is a balance of Yin and Yang. Ever heard the term cotton covered steel, that comes from taijiquan. Also you seem to think taiji is incapable of attack, you are again wrong. I have trained Yang, Chen, Wu and Sun and all can and do attack if necessary and if trained correctly, can keep you rather healthy. Taijiquan does not prefer attack since it may not be necessary, but it can, and does, if necessary.

And if the other person is not moving.....why are you attacking? That is defined, legally, as an assault. I think you may be confusing push hands with actual fighting.

Although I am more than willing to admit that there are few that train it correctly these days.

 

[Martial D]

There are plenty of taiji practitioners who can fight well. And if you learn a style that makes you 'soft', you can learn something else to get rid of that later on.

Is there though? I mean, there are plenty of dudes that can fight that also know taiji, but there are also lots of people that can fight that can speak French or touch their tongue to their nose.

Maybe these things are causally related, maybe they aren't.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hi guys, thanks for the answers!
The schools I have around me which I found appealing are:
- Tai Chi: Velkommen til Practical Tai Chi Chuan DK - Practical Tai Chi Chuan Danmark - they have 2 instructors that teach different things
- Kung fu toa: THE COLOSSEUM - ACTIVITIES

They describe their styles a bit there. The first one is definitely much softer than the second.. I’m sure of that.
Also I am 29 years old so I can move a bit as well

Hi Cristina,

It is hard for me to comment specifically about any of these, as I do not have experience with these specific systems. While I’ve done some taiji in the past, I’ve not trained wudang taiji. The Coliseum looks like mostly an MMA gym, which is likely to have a heavy focus on sparring. Their method of Kung fu that they claim is unfamiliar to me, and they describe it as a mix of Kung fu and karate and other things. I am always cautious with such mixed systems, as it seems to me they are often not mixed in a way that makes sense and I wonder if the method was created as an attempt to make up for a lack in depth of understanding. Simply mixing different things together does not automatically make a better result. But as I said, I have no specific experience with the system and it is possible that you could receive quality instruction and training from them.

The third place you mentioned also looks like an MMA type gym which is likely to have a heavy focus in sparring.

For myself, I am more interested in the traditional Chinese martial arts and it looks to me like the taiji school is most likely of those three to offer that kind of training. So if I was to choose for myself between the three, I would go to the taiji school.

However, I would say all three schools are worth your time to explore. Go and see if you can watch a couple classes, maybe they would let you try a class or two for free so you can try it out. Then whichever school seems like the most interesting to you, where you feel the most comfortable with the training methods and the people and the instructor, go with that one. Do not get too attached to the idea of a particular system, as a good instructor is what is more important than the particular system.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I disagree.
Aikido would give her everything she wants without hitting.

She would still need to spar and would still need to deal with the reality of a physical attack. How can you apply Aikido against someone who punches you when you never had to deal with a punch?

How can you learn the timing and distance of a punch if you don't spar against someone who is trying to hit you? There are some skills you can only learn through sparring.

Application skills is one of those things

 

[Cristina]

She would still need to spar and would still need to deal with the reality of a physical attack. How can you apply Aikido against someone who punches you when you never had to deal with a punch?

How can you learn the timing and distance of a punch if you don't spar against someone who is trying to hit you? There are some skills you can only learn through sparring.

Application skills is one of those things

I am not saying I am not willing to do it, I just don’t want that to be the start. Of course I would like to also learn that at some point, but the main focus would not be punching someone, being thrown on a matress and all that. I am more interested in learning the moves, the techniques without (at least in the start, being hit).
If I was interested in the fighting I would go for kickboxing or any of these punch and throw stuff, which I am not attracted to.
That is why I have oriented myself to another kind of style, that to me, at least from reading about it, would not offer what you are saying in the start.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You are, as per usual, talking about things you do not understand as it applies to taijiquan.

I will take this as a person attack. Your attitude remind me someone who talked about his "snake engine". Whenever he disagreed with someone, he would say, "You don't understand ...". IMO, this kind of attitude is bad for open discussion.

We disagree with each other is not because "You understand and I don't", or "I understand and you don't". We just have different opinions.

Taiji was my 1st MA style. I learned Taiji when I was 7. That was 64 years ago.

My long fist teacher teaches Taiji as well. But he only teach his student who has 2 - 3 years of long fist training from him. Taiji is not a style suitable as the 1st MA style (for the reasons I had stated). But it can be treated as the 2nd MA style.

And if the other person is not moving.....why are you attacking?

What if that person just killed someone?

 

[jobo]

I am not saying I am not willing to do it, I just don’t want that to be the start. Of course I would like to also learn that at some point, but the main focus would not be punching someone, being thrown on a matress and all that. I am more interested in learning the moves, the techniques without (at least in the start, being hit).
If I was interested in the fighting I would go for kickboxing or any of these punch and throw stuff, which I am not attracted to.
That is why I have oriented myself to another kind of style, that to me, at least from reading about it, would not offer what you are saying in the start.

people have a one size fits all answer, if you don't want to get punched or thrown around, then any style that doesn't spar or one that does but allows you to sit it out, will do and that's most of them.

go and try both, then decid d which you like best, , if someone punches you , don't go back

 

[Bruce7]

She would still need to spar and would still need to deal with the reality of a physical attack. How can you apply Aikido against someone who punches you when you never had to deal with a punch?

How can you learn the timing and distance of a punch if you don't spar against someone who is trying to hit you? There are some skills you can only learn through sparring.

Application skills is one of those things

You practice against all kinds of attack, including punches, but you are not hitting them, you are throwing them to the ground and holding them in a most painful way. if you hold them right they would wish that you would hit them instead.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I will take this as a person attack. Your attitude remind me someone who talked about his "snake engine". Whenever he disagreed with someone, he would say, "You don't understand ...". IMO, this kind of attitude is bad for open discussion.

We disagree with each other is not because "You understand and I don't", or "I understand and you don't". We just have different opinions.

Taiji was my 1st MA style. I learned Taiji when I was 7. That was 64 years ago.

My long fist teacher teaches Taiji as well. But he only teach his student who has 2 - 3 years of long fist training from him. Taiji is not a style suitable as the 1st MA style (for the reasons I had stated). But it can be treated as the 2nd MA style.


What if that person just killed someone?

And of courses your statement "it's not proper for a young guy to act like a 80 years old man." was not an attack. Consider it a personal attack if you like, it was not from my POV, it was simply as statement of fact.

As for first style...it is the first and only style my Yang shifu ever trained, his shifu or Tung Hu Ling for that matter. It is the only style Chen Zhenglei and CHen Xiaowang ever trained too. The real issue these days with taiji is that it is taught by people who do not really know what it is, or it is taught to people who do not want to know what it is beyond moving meditation. If one can find a good shifu, and I will openly admit it is very difficult to do, training as a first art is not an issue.

IMO you do not understand taijiquan, in post after post about it you seem to continually make statements that my 27 years training it say are just plain wrong. I did not start with Taiji and my 47 years training MA, I have trained other styles over the years, and my 47 years don't agree with you, in most cases, about taiji at all. You sound rather competent it the other styles you talk about, I do not doubt you are good at what you train, but your opinions of taijiquan, imo are simply wrong in most cases. Not an attack, just a fact from where I am standing. Now can we stop comparing years...or is it necessary to continue

As for an open discussion, one cannot discus a style with someone who appears to be as bias about it as you appear to be.

 

[Bruce7]

Kung Fu Wang and Xue Sheng your knowledge of Chinese Arts is very interesting to read, but I think your knowledge of Taijiquen is above most of our heads. Perhaps the more detailed points of Taijiquen could be discussed in messages to each other. Maybe empty the cups and make a new pot of tea.

 

[Buka]

Christina, first and foremost, welcome to Martial Talk.

My advice would be to spend a couple nights watching classes in each school.
Then pick the one you think would be the most enjoyable for you personally.

Keep us posted. And enjoy the process of picking one.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And of courses your statement "it's not proper for a young guy to act like a 80 years old man." was not an attack. Consider it a personal attack if you like, it was not from my POV, it was simply as statement of fact. ... As for an open discussion, one cannot discus a style with someone who appears to be as bias about it as you appear to be.

Who was I attacking when I said, "it's not proper for a young guy to act like a 80 years old man."

Who has the right to say the other person is bias? Are you bias. or am I bias?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am not saying I am not willing to do it, I just don’t want that to be the start.

If you have a good teacher then you won't get into sparring until you have some base skills to work with. Some people get into sparring faster because of previous knowledge. For example, it took me 2 years to get 2 female students to spar. The biggest challenge for them was the "fear of sparring" in their minds they thought they were going to get hit hard like some of the other students. It was really difficult for them to believe that students lower the skill level to match the opponent as needed.

Once they got into sparring they loved it and would request it more than the guys who generally had to take a week or two for healing after being bruised from regular training and sparring. The women were bruised too, but not to the same extent. Everyone that I've train in sparring often smiles during sparring. If your teacher is good then he or she will introduce sparring to you in the right way.

but the main focus would not be punching someone,

For martial arts with striking, this will always be your focus even when you aren't hitting someone. When I do my forms I throw punches as if I was hitting someone. i get the image in my mind to help me visualize how I should drive the energy for my punches and how I should target them. None of this is important if you don't plan on using martial arts for self-defense. If you plan on using it then striking the target and visualizing a human target is greatly beneficial. That's just the nature of martial arts application. There is a difference between focusing on punching someone and actually doing it. I've been doing martial arts on and off since I was 8 years old. I've always focused on punching someone. My last street fight was a long time ago maybe in my 20's or before then. I'm 46 years old and when I train train forms, I focus on I focus on punching someone in the jaw in a way that affects the neck. When I spar I focus one punching someone in a way that allows me to learn my techniques and keep my sparring partner fairly safe. They still get hit but I don't blast them.

Remember. Keep in mind that you stated you want to use martial arts for defense so it's just part of what you have to do. Hit with a purpose, kick with a purpose, train with a purpose. Just throwing air punches without a purpose will keep you feet but will be detrimental to your ability to actually use it. The things I'm telling now are the things I would tell you if you were my student.

being thrown on a matress and all that

Unfortunately you will have to visit this at some point. It happens and those who don't train it usually end up on the ground in a real fight with someone on top beating the snot out of them. If you want to protect yourself from someone taking you to the ground and beating you, then this is part of the training.

If I was interested in the fighting I would go for kickboxing or any of these punch and throw stuff, which I am not attracted to.

And this is why I recommended that you take martial arts for fun and then take self-defense classes so you can learn how to avoid trouble vs fighting your way out of trouble.

hat is why I have oriented myself to another kind of style, that to me, at least from reading about it, would not offer what you are saying in the start.

Any respectable martial arts teacher would not throw you into sparring or attacking right away. First you have to learn the basics, such as how to throw a proper punch with correct structure. How to cover from hits. You would first be thought the correct way to do things, which protects you from hurting yourself. I've seen more hurt themselves from throwing incorrect punches than from sparring. I had a bunch of videos related to this but I can't post them because of the rules of Martial Talk. Just know that people hurt themselves all the time by punching and that's because of poor punching structure. A good teacher will make sure you get that correct first.

 

[JowGaWolf]

if you don't want to get punched or thrown around, then any style that doesn't spar or one that does but allows you to sit it out, will do and that's most of them.

This isn't the issue. The issue is that she wants to be able to use her training to defend herself, which requires sparring. If she only wants to do martial arts to stay fit and learn some cool stuff, then any martial arts will be good for her. But in that situation she would need to do something else to so she could reach her goal to be able to defend herself, which a good self-defense class would allow her to reach that goal with minimum sparring.

Don't mislead her and have her believe that she can take a martial arts class and still be able to use it to protect herself without sparring, without punching stuff, and without kicking stuff. Anyone that tells her that she can just to the forms and still gain the skills to protect herself is lying to her. And that's just not right. Be honest.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You practice against all kinds of attack, including punches, but you are not hitting them, you are throwing them to the ground and holding them in a most painful way. if you hold them right they would wish that you would hit them instead.

I'll let someone who trains Aikido and who has actually tried to use their techniques against a sparring partner who punches and kicks because at this point I can tell that you aren't going to believe anything I say.

 

[Martial D]

I'll let someone who trains Aikido and who has actually tried to use their techniques against a sparring partner who punches and kicks because at this point I can tell that you aren't going to believe anything I say.

Here, let me show you a video of aikido movements being used in an actual fight.

I'll find it, I swear. I think Bigfoot gave it to Nessie to keep safe.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Who was I attacking when I said, "it's not proper for a young guy to act like a 80 years old man."

The inference is that those who do taiji are all basically 80 year old men and that simply is not the case now is it...

Who has the right to say the other person is bias? Are you bias. or am I bias?

Well pretty much anyone who reads what someone is stating in what they write.

Based on your posts about taijiquan and that is all I need to read, based on those, as they apply to taijiquan, you seem to have a bias against taijiquan. So based on what you have written that is where I am getting that you appear to be biased. You think that those who do taijiquan all move like 80 year old men...is that not a bias....yes it is, since it is not true. Have you ever seen an advanced fast form in taijiquan...have you ever trained one....did you even know they existed..... I have seen a man close to 80 do a couple of them and he is pretty spry and move more like a much younger man....have you seen Chen style Laojia Erlu done. there is a lot of strength, explosive speed and power there. Again is that what you would call "moving like an 80 year old man"....you belief in this shows a bias.. .that is all.

And what am I biased about, you can say what you feel that is if you like. As far as I can tell, as it applies to martial arts, I have no bias. And after all this is a martial arts website

But this will never get us anywhere, you will not change. your opinion and I will not change mine so know that in things taiji that you post I am likely to comment....but beyond that we should just not disagree to not agree.....

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you want to take martial arts for fun - Any martial arts will do (no sparring required)
If you want to take martial arts for exercise and fitness - Any martial arts will do (no sparring required)
If you want to take martial arts to see what it's like - Any martial arts will do (no sparring required)
If you don't want to punch or be punched - Any martial arts will do (no sparring required)
If you don't have a purpose or focus of your training - Any martial arts will do (no sparring required)

If you want to take martial arts for self-defense purposes then you must do the following

• Train with the purpose of using it for self-defense
• Train with the focus of attacking, defending, and escaping an aggressive attacker.
• Condition your body so that you are less likely to be hurt when fighting back in self-defense
• Condition your mind and emotions so that you can be prepared as much as possible for the cruelty of an attack
• Learn timing and posturing (sparring required)
• Learn distance and deflection (sparring required)
• Learn how to apply what you train (sparring required)

I always suggest 4 things to students.

1. Determine your Goal -What do what to do.
   
2. Be honest about your Goal - Be honest with yourself about the nature of your goal
   
3. Train according to your Goal - Do things that help you accomplish your goal
   
4. Be honest about your Training - Be honest with yourself about what is really required for to reach that goal.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here, let me show you a video of aikido movements being used in an actual fight.

I'll find it, I swear. I think Bigfoot gave it to Nessie to keep safe.

lol. I have some videos, but I can't post them because of MT Rules. Totally sucks. I found a video of a guy that talks about Aikido and actual use of it.
Name of youtube video is
Why You MUST MUST MUST do Sparring in Aikido

Here's one video. Hope it doesn't get removed for boosting Seagals career. It's got striking in it.

MODS... If you have to remove the video, please just remove the video and not my comments