Wheres the shaolin in USSD's shaolin kempo

[Hand Sword]

The horror stories are about the Business practices, and that which is connected to it. It has nothing to do with the individual's time spent through the years training and earning some rank (most to at least BB level), before they get to that level.

True there are entire systems but all they are is the founder's way of combining the basics. Nothing silly about it. A horse stance is present in the American systems, Japanese systems, Chinese systems, etc.. Front punches, Front kicks, side kicks Etc.. Yep! All there too! So, How is it silly? We train (have trained) in different systems, are you telling me that Your fron ball kick to the groin is vastly different from mine?, a Karateka? etc..? How about a palm heel to the nose for everyone, all different moves?

As for legitimacy, let's stop this before it turns into a more ridiculous thread than it's becoming. Legitimacy is a popularity contest, and based on one's opinions. They vary on all sides of the argument. In all honesty, All of our systems in this forum, and it's founders could be and have been questioned as well. We could go on and on about it, but, it ridiculous, and a waste of time. We all, even the "bad apples of business" at one time took up the arts out of love for it (which is what fuels the passion of these arguments). There was no politics, especially in the "same family". IMHO if anyone puts in the work, they are just as legitimate as any of us are, and were when we started out.

 

[marlon]

Marlon,
Out of all the posts i have read of yours. this is definetly the best.
In Peace
Jesse

Thanks Jesse...i think...

However, what i said seems to have been lost on most of the discussion

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[almost a ghost]

Hand Sword, while the system still maybe effective in the end, it doesn't make it OK to call a system Shaolin when no direct lineage can be pointed out. To call the system Shaolin because it can be eventually traced back to the Shaolin temple is an over simplification of the time line, and by the same merit I can all Tang Soo Do a Shaolin system. Is the statement true? To a certain degree it is, but does it make it right to do so? No. (I'm not even going to get into Villari's "story" how how and where he learned Kung Fu.)

Who does this affect? It probably won't affect the guy walking into a certain chain of studios looking for a hobby or just looking for self defense training. To them apples and oranges are both fruit in the end. This will affect the person walking into the same schools wanting to learn a style of Shaolin Kung fu and being told what they have is shaolin kung fu.

Also, to say a Kempo front ball kick to the groin is no different than one from a TKD, Shaolin, thai, and etc is true. The difference is what you did before the kick and what you did after the kick is what differs one style from another. Believe it or not, there are people out there willing to drive an hour to class and pay more per month to for a particular style.

 

[dianhsuhe]

Handsword- I think you missed my point(s). maybe we should agree to disagree... I have read many of your posts and know you are a sharp poster- maybe on this we are just polar opposites--No biggy!

I get ramped up reading the USSD threads........because>>

I came from USSD, a style that advertised one thing and taught something completely different. (Not even the Shaolin part, I am talking the kempo part) I was sold a bill of goods, literally! I admit that I have a bone to pick with USSD... They hassled my instructor when he said he was leaving that system, like others have stated, and I just could not believe what I saw. I mean, this was the martial Arts, where character is forged! Where honor, courtesy, and respect are taught! Nope...Just the opposite- Thank goodness I left with my instructor and we found the real-deal. PLEASE DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE LINEAGE "ISSUES" I have with them.

Back to your post: Saying that all material taught at different schools is the same as all striking arts because most seem to have a palm-heel or horse stance, is painting with a BROAD BRUSH!

This is similar to saying that all meat is the same, since it shares a basic "origin", burger vs steak, vs ribeye etc. Yet we all know the VAST difference in appearance, taste, quality, etc. Oh, and all music is the same if it shares traits like "singing" or "a drum-set"? NOPE

What does it matter if my car mechanic is good or legitimate? maybe he works on Bull-Dozers but he is just fine popping the hood of my BMW- I mean, the basics are the same right? Besides, he has been doing it for a LONG time, blood sweat and tears...LOL

Legitimacy is a popularity contest you say? WOW... I suppose..to some degree...that may be true, but when 9 out of 10 folks recommend "running away from USSD" as fast as possible...That sure screams out ILLEGITIMATE! to me... When someone comes on these boards asking for a good school or style, these things DO MATTER. Would you have them believe that all styles are the same? Would you tell them to just find a school where the main guy has trained a long time?

Just because someone has trained hard for a long time it does not mean they are legitimate. It only means they have trained hard for a long time- there needs to be a distinction. Think Better Business Bureau, that might help...

I dunno Handsword, I think the martial arts have more VARIETY than virtually anything else in the world- The Material is NOT THE SAME, and in the end, that is quite possibly a good-thing.

Have a great weekend!
james
"Practice DOES NOT make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect".

 

[RevIV]

Is there real Shaolin in Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo? This is a legit question, I come from the Villari lineage and I always hear people busting on the name "Shaolin". But no one ever says anything about GM Castro's system. So i want to know are most of these just bones to pic or is there shaolin in GM Castro's system?
In Peace
Jesse

 

[Hand Sword]

Hand Sword, while the system still maybe effective in the end, it doesn't make it OK to call a system Shaolin when no direct lineage can be pointed out. To call the system Shaolin because it can be eventually traced back to the Shaolin temple is an over simplification of the time line, and by the same merit I can all Tang Soo Do a Shaolin system. Is the statement true? To a certain degree it is, but does it make it right to do so? No. (I'm not even going to get into Villari's "story" how how and where he learned Kung Fu.)

Who does this affect? It probably won't affect the guy walking into a certain chain of studios looking for a hobby or just looking for self defense training. To them apples and oranges are both fruit in the end. This will affect the person walking into the same schools wanting to learn a style of Shaolin Kung fu and being told what they have is shaolin kung fu.

Also, to say a Kempo front ball kick to the groin is no different than one from a TKD, Shaolin, thai, and etc is true. The difference is what you did before the kick and what you did after the kick is what differs one style from another. Believe it or not, there are people out there willing to drive an hour to class and pay more per month to for a particular style.

You're right about the Marketing thing. I never said that it was O.K. to call it Shaolin when it was not a direct link, perhaps you misunderstood me? All I did was give an answer to the question of the post, based on answers from my talks with the Shaolin Kempo seniors in the past. Just trying to help out, sorry. As a side note here on MT, we've all agreed in the past, that if you're a founder of something, it's your right to name it what you want. The SKK people and their descendants did just that, as did all the rest of the American Pioneers.

As for what goes on before and after a technique, you're right, differences exist. Again, I never said anywhere or anytime that they didn't. I was trying to focus everyone's attention To the commonalities we have, instead of the differences. Honestly, to that point what we all do before or after the techniques, really doesn't matter, and can't be judged. No one is qualified to say that "my ways" are the correct. Besides, that conversation was not what was asked here, it evolved into it. It was becoming my dad can beat yours, mudslinging (deservedly so) over the business end of people, and the bashing of a style. I'm tired of all the fighting, especially when it becomes so juvenile, so I was trying to stop it. All of our styles founders in these forums, and their ways can be scrutinized.

 

[Hand Sword]

Handsword- I think you missed my point(s). maybe we should agree to disagree... I have read many of your posts and know you are a sharp poster- maybe on this we are just polar opposites--No biggy!

I get ramped up reading the USSD threads........because>>

I came from USSD, a style that advertised one thing and taught something completely different. (Not even the Shaolin part, I am talking the kempo part) I was sold a bill of goods, literally! I admit that I have a bone to pick with USSD... They hassled my instructor when he said he was leaving that system, like others have stated, and I just could not believe what I saw. I mean, this was the martial Arts, where character is forged! Where honor, courtesy, and respect are taught! Nope...Just the opposite- Thank goodness I left with my instructor and we found the real-deal. PLEASE DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE LINEAGE "ISSUES" I have with them.

Back to your post: Saying that all material taught at different schools is the same as all striking arts because most seem to have a palm-heel or horse stance, is painting with a BROAD BRUSH!

This is similar to saying that all meat is the same, since it shares a basic "origin", burger vs steak, vs ribeye etc. Yet we all know the VAST difference in appearance, taste, quality, etc. Oh, and all music is the same if it shares traits like "singing" or "a drum-set"? NOPE

What does it matter if my car mechanic is good or legitimate? maybe he works on Bull-Dozers but he is just fine popping the hood of my BMW- I mean, the basics are the same right? Besides, he has been doing it for a LONG time, blood sweat and tears...LOL

Legitimacy is a popularity contest you say? WOW... I suppose..to some degree...that may be true, but when 9 out of 10 folks recommend "running away from USSD" as fast as possible...That sure screams out ILLEGITIMATE! to me... When someone comes on these boards asking for a good school or style, these things DO MATTER. Would you have them believe that all styles are the same? Would you tell them to just find a school where the main guy has trained a long time?

Just because someone has trained hard for a long time it does not mean they are legitimate. It only means they have trained hard for a long time- there needs to be a distinction. Think Better Business Bureau, that might help...

I dunno Handsword, I think the martial arts have more VARIETY than virtually anything else in the world- The Material is NOT THE SAME, and in the end, that is quite possibly a good-thing.

Have a great weekend!
james
"Practice DOES NOT make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect".

I didn't miss your points, really. I understand what you are saying and AGREE with that part. Their business practices are shoddy and yes, you should stay away from them. Again though, it's about their business practices, not about the art that is taught. Besides, all of the american founders, as has been pointed out, were questioned as well, in the past. I was just trying to steer the conversation away from the mudslinging that was beginning. It's always the people, not the ART, even in this kind of argument. I just answered the post's original question.

As for the broad brush, Hey, We all paint with what we like. Besides I worked with many different arts and artists over the years, and you know what? Our final pictures were the same, as well as the common strategies that we used to get there. That's all I was trying to point out. Trying to help us all evolve past the "my style is THE way" argument, that has splintered us all, in one way or another, even in the same families.

Would I say the styles are the same? No, never said that I would. However, I would point out that none is better or more legit than any other. They are all legit, it's the People (and how they promote a style)that are or aren't.

The basics are the basics, we all do them. We might stroke differently, before and after, but we still use the same colors and brushes (wrenches and tools for your mechanic argument).

You have a good one too.

 

[Hand Sword]

Is there real Shaolin in Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo? This is a legit question, I come from the Villari lineage and I always hear people busting on the name "Shaolin". But no one ever says anything about GM Castro's system. So i want to know are most of these just bones to pic or is there shaolin in GM Castro's system?
In Peace
Jesse

Exactly what I was saying about the popularity contest. At one point in time, in the martial art world, Bruce Lee was a young punk, and no master etc.. What changed? people and culture of the MA world. What happened? He is now a God! Chow? Learned from dreams? An uneducated thug? Now? The "man" ! Same with Villari and USSD (his ex students), definitely a stigma attached to them, that has always kept that side on the fringe of the Kem/npo community. Whats it based on? Past BUSINESS dealings of PEOPLE. That, in all honesty, is what the core of these arguments and their furor comes from. As for the art, No questioning Nick Cerio, George Pesare, Gascon when they are doing essentially the same thing. It's Legit then. Same with Kajukenbo, from which SKK came from. But even they were not so at one time, fro the MA world. Just a bunch of Black Belts (in their eyes) Who eventually made themselves "Gand Masters", and Created their ways and named them what they wanted. (Just like every other founder of every other "way" that's ever been)

It's a popularity contest, based on the view of those that are the "Players" of that moment in time. Same now as then, and will be in the future.

 

[dianhsuhe]

DEFINITELY agree to disagree then...

I have never heard Professor Chow being referred to as a "thug", and he did not learn Kung-Fu from "dreams".

 

[Hand Sword]

Exactly my point! That story has been around for awhile. Also, coming up as a streetfighter, and killing people in fights, I'm sure makes him an angel. Also, when he intimidated people, referring to testing them out, made him one too. My point was to this whole illegitimacy thing. It could go against any of the founders. The questions about ALL of them, back then, was there!

Funny, how, from that post, that was all you pulled out, Ignoring the rest of the argument about the other founders. I think your Bias to that sytem, and your personal hatred of the USSD organization is clouding your judgement, forcing an argument, when I said we AGREED on your point.

I'll say it again, to clarify for you. None of the American/Hawaiin sytems have a solid history when it comes to being legit. They were questioned, and still are so, even amongst themselves. Exactly why I said this kind of argument --to legitimacy- is stupid, and should be avoided. None have clean hands on this issue, that you were arguing.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Exactly my point! That story has been around for awhile. Also, coming up as a streetfighter, and killing people in fights, I'm sure makes him an angel. Also, when he intimidated people, referring to testing them out, made him one too. My point was to this whole illegitimacy thing. It could go against any of the founders. The questions about ALL of them, back then, was there!

Funny, how, from that post, that was all you pulled out, Ignoring the rest of the argument about the other founders. I thing your Bias to that sytem, and your personal hatred of the USSD organization is clouding your judgement, forcing an argument, when I said we AGREED on your point.

I'll say it again, to clarify for you. None of the American/Hawaiin sytems have a solid history when it comes to being legit. They were questioned, and still are so, even amongst themselves. Exactly why I said this kind of argument --to legitimacy- is stupid, and should be avoided. None have clean hands on this issue, that you were arguing.

Great points! I agree totally with your post.

Ok, they are not some folks' choice of a school they would go to or send their kids to (I'm in that crowd of probably not recommending USSD to friends or family), but they have every right to teach MA and charge what they wish - as posters here have every right NOT to study there or recommend them. These constant attacks against them seem absolutely pointless.

 

[dianhsuhe]

It was not my intention to have such a short post- My wife offered to give me a haircut so I cut that post short...I did not ignore anything- Don't get all snooty with me because I do not have time to respond to EVERY portion in your post.

The only point I have really tried to make is that different martial arts teach different material, right down to the basics even- Yes I prefer my system and yes I really do not like USSD- Is that a bad thing?

I am not arguing, just offering info. based on my experiences--- I fail to see how villifying Professor Chow will shed light on your contention that all arts teach the same material and that all martial artists are legit because they have trained for a long time...

I am sorry my inbox was full, you apparently tried sending me a message- I cleared it out in case you wanna send anything.

No hard feelings Handsword, I am sorry that I got defensive- I DO have to work on that...

james

 

[Hand Sword]

It was not my intention to have such a short post- My wife offered to give me a haircut so I cut that post short...I did not ignore anything- Don't get all snooty with me because I do not have time to respond to EVERY portion in your post.

The only point I have really tried to make is that different martial arts teach different material, right down to the basics even- Yes I prefer my system and yes I really do not like USSD- Is that a bad thing?

I am not arguing, just offering info. based on my experiences--- I fail to see how villifying Professor Chow will shed light on your contention that all arts teach the same material and that all martial artists are legit because they have trained for a long time...

I am sorry my inbox was full, you apparently tried sending me a message- I cleared it out in case you wanna send anything.

No hard feelings Handsword, I am sorry that I got defensive- I DO have to work on that...

james

First, You're lucky, and a hell of a lot cheaper for ya! I cut mine too.

next, nothing snooty, trust me on that (not my style). Just seemed strange from a whole point, you just pulled out that. In all honesty you know the stuff out there, and in here, about Professor Chow. I respect him tremendously, having the same mind set. I was trying to show how the "legitimate" argument could be, and has been applied to all of our founders and styles. I did this because the post went toward Shaolin Kempo Karate as a Style was "illegitimate". This was beiong linked to the People of the USSD organization, and their crappy representation of the style. Also, no it's not a bad thing that you don't like them, never said that it was, and I Agreed with your view of that, sharing it myself.

I just didn't want the business practices of PEOPLE to be the embodiement of a STYLE. 2 different things. For all those illegitimate businesses there are legitimate practitioners of that style. Which, by the way, before becoming businessman, were practitoners, themselves. That's why I said we are all legit, artists. I know of some of them, as all of our founders, and they could "represent" if attacked. As for the length of time of practice, I guess we disagree. I would never slight anyone who puts in the time and sweat, especially, showing dedication, doing it for a long time. I would call them legit practitoners, as we all are, or were at one time.

As for the basics thing, if you really believe in the differences of horse stances, kicks, and strikes, common throughout the arts, nothing I can do about that. No hard feelings at all.

 

[Mariachi Joe]

I have to admit that even though I'm with ussd I would not recommend it to my family or friends because I think $200/month is just too much to ask, especially when the local competion does not even charge half that.

 

[shaolin ninja 4]

I have to admit that even though I'm with ussd I would not recommend it to my family or friends because I think $200/month is just too much to ask, especially when the local competion does not even charge half that.

$200 a month!!!!! How do USSD guys stay in business ? No family in there right mind would sign up for that!
They must be losing instrutors every month.

 

[Hand Sword]

That is a very high tuition. I wonder if it's for that school particularly, or, if that is the price for all.

 

[shaolin ninja 4]

Hand Sword, while the system still maybe effective in the end, it doesn't make it OK to call a system Shaolin when no direct lineage can be pointed out. To call the system Shaolin because it can be eventually traced back to the Shaolin temple is an over simplification of the time line, and by the same merit I can all Tang Soo Do a Shaolin system. Is the statement true? To a certain degree it is, but does it make it right to do so? No. (I'm not even going to get into Villari's "story" how how and where he learned Kung Fu.)

Who does this affect? It probably won't affect the guy walking into a certain chain of studios looking for a hobby or just looking for self defense training. To them apples and oranges are both fruit in the end. This will affect the person walking into the same schools wanting to learn a style of Shaolin Kung fu and being told what they have is shaolin kung fu.

Also, to say a Kempo front ball kick to the groin is no different than one from a TKD, Shaolin, thai, and etc is true. The difference is what you did before the kick and what you did after the kick is what differs one style from another. Believe it or not, there are people out there willing to drive an hour to class and pay more per month to for a particular style.

I agree they shouldn't be allowed to call it shaolin.

 

[Hand Sword]

I think if someone founds a style, They can call it what they want. No one else has to like it, it may be right or wrong, but, it's their right to do so.

I also believe that this has been debated to death anyway.

 

[almost a ghost]

$200 a month!!!!! How do USSD guys stay in business ? No family in there right mind would sign up for that!
They must be losing instrutors every month.

Quite the contrary. You'd be surprised what most people would bite at when it comes to marketing and presentation. It falls under "You get what you pay for", by tricking people into thinking "Wow, if these guys can charge $200, they must be worth it" and to a person not familiar with other schools, it does seem that good. It's creating a demand without actually having a demand, which ironically enough rolls into an actual demand. To the person who is signing up, at a very basic level, it has all the bells and whistles that they are looking for, and that's fine by them. Fortunately there are people waking up from that stupor, but once they do there's another grinning idiot (Yes, I was an idiot too) with $200 a month in direct with drawls waiting to sign up.

 

[Mariachi Joe]

As far as I know all the ussd dojo's in Utah charge around $200/month, but they do offer discounts for families. I don't pay $200/month.