Resistance in Kempo?

[Koshiki]

I recently moved to a new area, and, while I still train with a couple of schools from my old TKD-based system, the 45min-hour drive cuts down on how frequently I make it to class, and I'm definitely not leading regular classes anymore. The area has a few VERY (far too, for me) kid friendly martial arts schools, an MMA gym, and a reasonably decent Shaolin Kempo school, from the Villari lineage, though not an official Villari school.

Anyway, I started taking classes with those guys, mainly to have some warm bodies who are willing to beat me up. To be honest, I know very little about Shaolin Kempo, and, though I should perhaps not say so on a Kempo forum, the general outlook among the martial Artists I know tends to be one of tolerant, friendly dismissal. That said, four classes in, I'm having fun at their school; everyone is very nice, very welcoming, and seem to really enjoy the training.

They practice combinations and kempos (I am still unclear as to the distinction) which seem to mainly be, from what I have witnessed, elaborate defenses against large, swinging punches which are left extended, all without any sort of resistance or reaction from the "aggressor". They also do the uber-light contact tournament style tag-sparring.

So here's my question. The instructors, when asked, are a bit vague and avoidant about whether or not they train any more involved, or more kempo-esque sparring, and whether or not they eventually work into training techniques against a resisting opponent. Is this something I am likely to get out of a Villari school?

I'll keep playing with them either way; martial arts is martial arts, and I love it, but I was wondering what a Kempo crowd might lead me to expect from a Shaolin Kempo school?

 

[MJS]

I recently moved to a new area, and, while I still train with a couple of schools from my old TKD-based system, the 45min-hour drive cuts down on how frequently I make it to class, and I'm definitely not leading regular classes anymore. The area has a few VERY (far too, for me) kid friendly martial arts schools, an MMA gym, and a reasonably decent Shaolin Kempo school, from the Villari lineage, though not an official Villari school.

Anyway, I started taking classes with those guys, mainly to have some warm bodies who are willing to beat me up. To be honest, I know very little about Shaolin Kempo, and, though I should perhaps not say so on a Kempo forum, the general outlook among the martial Artists I know tends to be one of tolerant, friendly dismissal. That said, four classes in, I'm having fun at their school; everyone is very nice, very welcoming, and seem to really enjoy the training.

They practice combinations and kempos (I am still unclear as to the distinction) which seem to mainly be, from what I have witnessed, elaborate defenses against large, swinging punches which are left extended, all without any sort of resistance or reaction from the "aggressor". They also do the uber-light contact tournament style tag-sparring.

So here's my question. The instructors, when asked, are a bit vague and avoidant about whether or not they train any more involved, or more kempo-esque sparring, and whether or not they eventually work into training techniques against a resisting opponent. Is this something I am likely to get out of a Villari school?

I'll keep playing with them either way; martial arts is martial arts, and I love it, but I was wondering what a Kempo crowd might lead me to expect from a Shaolin Kempo school?

I started training in a Villari school. I was young, we didn't do any research, I wanted to train, that particular school was close, so thus my journey began. It wasn't a bad place, but when I left and started training Parker Kenpo, well, let's just say that my eyes were opened to a great deal more than what I saw in the Villari school. Now, I'm sure there are some great SKK schools out there, but like anything, you need to be careful and research the place. I mean, after all, it's your money, right?

I am not at all familiar with Maine, so how far you are from schools, how far you're willing to travel, are things that you'll have to decide for yourself. Doing some quick searching, I found the following:

http://www.akikenpo.com/schools/
I've heard good things about Tony. Parker Kenpo. Not sure how far this is from you.

http://bestwayassociation.com/locations#maine
Haven't heard anything bad about Bestway BJJ. Again, not sure how far this is from you.

http://mkkarate.com/kyokushin-kan-international/
I've heard good things about this dojo. I currently train Kyokushin and this school is part of our organization. I'm bias now, towards that art, so if this place was anywhere near you or you were willing to drive, I'd go there.

Hope this was a little help for you. Good luck in your search.

 

[Yondanchris]

I started training in a Villari school. I was young, we didn't do any research, I wanted to train, that particular school was close, so thus my journey began. It wasn't a bad place, but when I left and started training Parker Kenpo, well, let's just say that my eyes were opened to a great deal more than what I saw in the Villari school. Now, I'm sure there are some great SKK schools out there, but like anything, you need to be careful and research the place. I mean, after all, it's your money, right?

I am not at all familiar with Maine, so how far you are from schools, how far you're willing to travel, are things that you'll have to decide for yourself. Doing some quick searching, I found the following:

http://www.akikenpo.com/schools/
I've heard good things about Tony. Parker Kenpo. Not sure how far this is from you.

http://bestwayassociation.com/locations#maine
Haven't heard anything bad about Bestway BJJ. Again, not sure how far this is from you.

http://mkkarate.com/kyokushin-kan-international/
I've heard good things about this dojo. I currently train Kyokushin and this school is part of our organization. I'm bias now, towards that art, so if this place was anywhere near you or you were willing to drive, I'd go there.

Hope this was a little help for you. Good luck in your search.

I, Like MJS started in SKK...I spent 10 years in a Villarri lineage studio. I started as a Child and did not know differences between martial arts and had fun in class. Although later as I grew up and became more "aware" of my studies, I asked questions like yours about resistance and lack of variety in attacks (punch, kick, grab, lock, knife, gun). After separating from my former studio and was teaching (for free) on my own...those questions about the system became more and more prevalent and pessimistic. Finally in 2010 I found an instructor in American Kenpo and found what was lacking in my previous training, specifically resistance and variety of attacks, plus an added bonus of a larger and more comprehensive system.

Chris

 

[Koshiki]

Thanks for the replies, guys!

I'm pretty familiar with area schools; this was just the absolute closest TMA place that didn't cater to kids. I still train/teach/play with my original school system (have for 13 years, hopefully never going to change!). I was basically looking for a place where I could find some warm, reasonably skilled bodies willing to beat on my regularly. I work 40 hours a week, randomly changing swing shifts, plus several independent side-line jobs and such. I know if I try to train any of the other good area schools, at least 30 minutes away, I'm never going to end up making more than a class a week or so. So, not really looking to find a new place, just wondering if I anyone with experience has any guesses as to whether or not things are likely to get a bit more, "involved," if you will.

Kinda sounds like the answer is probably a "no," right? And is tap/tag-sparring pretty much the Villari standard for sparring, or is it more just a beginner thing?

 

[MJS]

I, Like MJS started in SKK...I spent 10 years in a Villarri lineage studio. I started as a Child and did not know differences between martial arts and had fun in class. Although later as I grew up and became more "aware" of my studies, I asked questions like yours about resistance and lack of variety in attacks (punch, kick, grab, lock, knife, gun). After separating from my former studio and was teaching (for free) on my own...those questions about the system became more and more prevalent and pessimistic. Finally in 2010 I found an instructor in American Kenpo and found what was lacking in my previous training, specifically resistance and variety of attacks, plus an added bonus of a larger and more comprehensive system.

Chris

Funny you should mention that, because that's what I found when I first started. Every tech we did in class, was one of the punch combinations. While club, knife, grab, etc, techs were required, oddly enough, those almost seemed like 'extras' that you had to hope you got in class or figure something out on your own.

As for finding the right teacher...they're out there, and when you find those gems, you have to hang on to them. I've never met Clark, but from what I've heard of him from your posts, he sounds like one of those gems. Sadly, I had no luck finding those gems in Ct, and I even looked out of state, but sadly, I was shafted by the guy, but that's another story. Anywho...I looked outside of Kenpo and found one of those gems in Kyokushin. My only regret is not going to his school sooner.

 

[MJS]

Thanks for the replies, guys!

I'm pretty familiar with area schools; this was just the absolute closest TMA place that didn't cater to kids. I still train/teach/play with my original school system (have for 13 years, hopefully never going to change!). I was basically looking for a place where I could find some warm, reasonably skilled bodies willing to beat on my regularly. I work 40 hours a week, randomly changing swing shifts, plus several independent side-line jobs and such. I know if I try to train any of the other good area schools, at least 30 minutes away, I'm never going to end up making more than a class a week or so. So, not really looking to find a new place, just wondering if I anyone with experience has any guesses as to whether or not things are likely to get a bit more, "involved," if you will.

Kinda sounds like the answer is probably a "no," right? And is tap/tag-sparring pretty much the Villari standard for sparring, or is it more just a beginner thing?

Oh I can relate to the work thing. I work days now, but that's not set in stone. When I worked 4-12, it was damn near impossible to get any serious training in. I relied a lot on private lessons during that time. My suggestion given your situation, would be to check out a few places, and see if anything interests you. Perhaps you could do a mat fee/pay per class or some privates.

As for the sparring...that'll probably differ from school to school. The Kenpo schools that I've been a part of, haven't done any heavy contact during sparring. I can say the opposite is the norm where I'm currently training.

 

[Koshiki]

Hmm, Ok. Thanks for the responses, guys! There's an MMA gym about 30 minutes away. Probably be a hekkuvvalotta fun to go play with them, if they do open mat type stuff. I think I found my "gem" in my first school, and I still go to class there, and cover class when needed. Just not enough.

The Kenpo school here actually seems pretty decent. I'm trying to view it more as martial game than martial art. That said, the very gentle, laid back, not especially detail oriented nature of this school seems to be luring my girlfriend into the action, potentially, which is a very surprising recent development! She was very uncomfortable with the slightly more vigorous, in depth nature of my primary school. (Everyone is very accepting of whatever your comfort limits might be, but she was, nevertheless, uncomfortable with making any sort of contact, or even just miming, really.) The one-step type stuff here is far enough from realistic looking fighting that she seems intrigued. Anyway, if going to a less than ideal school for me can get her foot in the door, I'm willing to suck it up and hang around. Besides, tag sparring is a pretty fun game. Also, it's kind of fun to be IN the class, rather than in front of it.

Thanks again for your input, everyone.

 

[marlon]

I have been lucky with my SKK training. My first three instructors were women, and perhaps because of their reasons for starting to train, and perhaps because they had to go the the States to be tested by American men, they were all very hard hitting and intense people. (each school was located in an unsafe neighbourhood btw). Tap/tag we were told was for the competitions in the States...our students were not allowed to spar until they had achieved a purple belt and what my instructors considered the necessary control. We hit solidly...nothing like our kaju brothers and sisters mind you but most nights you sparred you left with some bruises. Full contact sparring was restricted to the black belts. I made friends in the class who were interested in more contact and we did this on our own outside the dojo. When their schools closed (one by one for various reasons) I was left alone to open up my own little school teaching out of a church basement. Then I was the one who was supposed to have all the answers, right? well I did not so I researched and heard all about how crappy SKK is and how it lacks foundation and all the attacks against it's founder GGM Fred Villari. I seriously considered switching styles although, there were not many options in my area that interested me the way kempo does. So, I began to look at what I had been taught more deeply and realized that most of the techniques had real value. I trained at the same time in taiji and began to emphasize the structural coherence of that art to my kempo. Wow, it was like night and day! I researched beyond the attacks enough to realize that there is a solid and powerful martial art foundation to SKK. I truly believe that if Villari had follow the Ed Parker example and just said that he invented his stuff himself instead of attempting to legitimize his system with false or unverifiable stories SKK would be better off and more respectable. Many Villari lineage students have no idea that their art has kajukenbo roots!!!! I met these great East coast kempo students...who are all now instructors and above 5th degree, and the art came alive and has proven itself to me over and over again. I am totally, not interested in the Villari business model as I have experienced it by the style is great. Then I met my current teacher (who I have not clone to see in too long a period of time for health and life issues) Thomas Ingargiola who trains like no one i have ever met before. He has rounded out in SKK by cross training and travelling to train with various arts and made his SKK complete. He hits damn hard!!! I love it. He makes sure what he teaches you will work to save your life...and it is all still based on the combinations (numbered techniques) and the kempos (usually named techniques or animal techniques developed from the backbone combinations or brought "in" from other styles therefore very variable from instructor to instructor), and he retired a kickboxing champion and trains kick boxer and MMA fighters in his school all based on SKK. Meeting him was a gift. He is a true master in my opinion. open, knowledgeable, honest, and still a student and training himself daily and improving always. At my little place we rarely do the tag thing and the techniques are done with an understanding and practiced without the attacker just standing there unmoving while you rain 12 strikes on his ***. You need to understand and adjust for the movement the attacker will make simply in response to getting hit in a particular way, with a particular weapon on a specific target. We don't do much advanced tag, we prefer reaction drills, dragon circles and kempo sparring (where there is resistance and a real intent to fight back. There is the gentleman on the forum named DOC. he can explain these concepts to you like a Professor, through the AK system. But we have them in SKK as well if you find the correct teacher.
good luck to you and I guess my essential message is be the change you want and the universe has a way of hooking you up.
Cheers
Marlon