Strengths and Weaknesses of Shaolin Kempo Karate

[marlon]

You're not required to make your techniques work in sparring until 5th degree? That seems like a long wait to me. I would think that you should take whatever techniques you have at your current belt (Whatever that happens to be) and be able to make them work as much as possible using repetition drills etc. until you have them down.

I sometimes rush and do not realize that my words may be unclear. I am not fifth and i can make my sk work very well, sparring, training with an aggressive un cooperative partner or in a fight. From what i understood about Shihan's comment was that to pass fifth degree you need to be able to in a sparring situation pull off the combinations he asks you to or the kempo he asks of you. this requires not merely responding to the situation with your sk but being able to control and manipulate a dynamic situation.
Considering my post i think it a little unreasonable that anyone would read into it that skk or Shihan I teaches in such a manner that one can only make techniques work at 5th degree. I apologize for my part in the confusion but really....?!! In any case i have not gone through such tesdting and as i mentioned in my original post i train adn teach to be able to do this now...not at this particular level of skill yet but i am getting there. Ask me what i just did to defend myself and i can let you know which combo or kempo or form it came from or gestalted from but to say ok i am going to pull off 38 agaist an aggrssive sparring partner on demand...not yet.
Thanks for helping me clearify that thought. And again, for the full details i would have to check with Shihan Ingargiola as it was mentioned to me in passing and i did not have a big discussion about it

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

I never said that the art itself is bad. It's a good base! However, I had an instructor that didn't teach the grappling part...anything like that. I'm not saying a specific escape from the mount (which has a lot to do with bridging) or some specific armbar escape...just some basic principles. I never got those.

As I stated, it depends on the instructor. I believe I was taught differently also because I am a female. My brothers learned a different art than I did. They learned more defense, but I didn't have privy to their lessons.

Do any of you instructors teach different applications for males and females? I know I did when I had a school because of the fact that I was forced to go out and learn how to do applications elsewhere. I always wanted to impart what I learned on my students. Danjo will back me up on this...

Any female in my class who tells me that she cannot make a technique work against certain body types or whatever is a great opportunity for me to get better as an instructor and for everyone to re examine the techniques and see what makes it work and if it does not b/c of someone's gender then either i suck as a teacher or the technique needs to be thrown away. i love those times when anyone in class says i would never use technique "X"...it means time to learn deeper and better. skk should not be gender specific...and is not....BTW my first 3 sk instructors were women. Hard hitting, demanding, fast women. I thank them all

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

There isn't anything wrong with teaching females different applications than males. Most men don't train to defend themselvevs against a guy a foot taller and twice their weight.

To assume that a 5' 2" 125 pound woman will address a 6' 1" 210 pound male attacker the same way a 6' tall 200 pound man will is preposterous.

However, for instructors to not take female students seriously, respectfully, or responsibly is wrong.

Usually the 6' 200lbs man is doing it wrong and getting by with brute strength. I look at it as more challenging to teach the man how to use technique more than strength so they can do it the way the 5'2" 125 lb woman can. Which is more likely to be the right way technically and stratigically

Respectflly,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

Danjo said:

BTW, turning out good kickboxers is meaningless in terms of how effective a martial art is. There are kickboxers who had zero or minimal MA experience before starting kickboxing. Kickboxing is a sport that has limits built into it from the outset. The curriculum is extemely basic and it is geverned by rules. One can learn to be an effective kickboxer in 6 months. One cannot become equally proficient in Kenpo/Kempo in 6 months. So using the fact that a coach turns out good kickboxers as a criteria for saying he knows what he's doing teaching Kempo is illogical since it's two different things. He may ALSO be a good kempo instructor, but one doesn't prove the other.[/quote]










I would like to share:

BTW and just for the record Shihan Ingargiola is an amazing instructor. Clear, fun, hard working, demanding, fair, honest and very very practical. His technical knowledge and ability to share it with ease and effeciency is rivaled by few. His openness and willingness to listen and learn and his work ethic to train, learn and teach are inspirational to me and to many others who have met him and worked with him. he is human like all of us and has fully earned my respect. He is a true martial arts master in my humble opinion.
BTW he is the first to say that what happens in the kick boxing ring is sport and not the same animal at all

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[Danjo]

Usually the 6' 200lbs man is doing it wrong and getting by with brute strength. I look at it as more challenging to teach the man how to use technique more than strength so they can do it the way the 5'2" 125 lb woman can. Which is more likely to be the right way technically and stratigically

Respectflly,
Marlon

That may be true in a technical sense, but you owe it more to the woman to teach her what will really work for her in a life or death situation than you do to challenge yourself to get the big strong man to do it as technically well as the woman can.

People reflexively react how they train. If a woman is training to use techniques that were designed by men to be used by men, then she's not going to be able to use them very effectively against men. Modifying the techniques while retaining the underlying theory of the technique to utilize a woman's strengths and overcome her weaknesses is the way to go IMO.

 

[CTKempo Todd]

I would like to share:

BTW and just for the record Shihan Ingargiola is an amazing instructor. Clear, fun, hard working, demanding, fair, honest and very very practical. His technical knowledge and ability to share it with ease and effeciency is rivaled by few. His openness and willingness to listen and learn and his work ethic to train, learn and teach are inspirational to me and to many others who have met him and worked with him. he is human like all of us and has fully earned my respect. He is a true martial arts master in my humble opinion.
BTW he is the first to say that what happens in the kick boxing ring is sport and not the same animal at all

I emphatically second Marlon's opinion.

 

[marlon]

That may be true in a technical sense, but you owe it more to the woman to teach her what will really work for her in a life or death situation than you do to challenge yourself to get the big strong man to do it as technically well as the woman can.




I think you missed my point. Thwe techniques must woirk for everyone you teach it to. my challenge as a teacher is to see that this holds true. Base techniques are just that, modifications within a specific framework to allow the techniques to function and be effective is just common sense, Allowing someone to just brute through things is something i do not do. How you train is how you will react. Meeting someone a lot stronger than you should not negate your training because this is what we ttrain for, to respond when we cannot just push someone out of the way and leave; for when we are out numbered , tired, weaker- physically. Otherwise there would be no need to fight.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Danjo]

That may be true in a technical sense, but you owe it more to the woman to teach her what will really work for her in a life or death situation than you do to challenge yourself to get the big strong man to do it as technically well as the woman can.




I think you missed my point. Thwe techniques must woirk for everyone you teach it to. my challenge as a teacher is to see that this holds true. Base techniques are just that, modifications within a specific framework to allow the techniques to function and be effective is just common sense, Allowing someone to just brute through things is something i do not do. How you train is how you will react. Meeting someone a lot stronger than you should not negate your training because this is what we ttrain for, to respond when we cannot just push someone out of the way and leave; for when we are out numbered , tired, weaker- physically. Otherwise there would be no need to fight.

Respectfully,
Marlon

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that the techniques, "As is" are equally effective for women to use as they are for men?

 

[marlon]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that the techniques, "As is" are equally effective for women to use as they are for men?

I am having trouble making my self clear these days i guess: I do not know what your
-as is- is so i will do my best to make plain my point.

Base techniques are just that, modifications within a specific framework to allow the techniques to function and be effective is just common sense,

base techniques are just base techniques to learn then one must be able to make modifications (not change the technique) within the framework of the technique in order for it to be effective and functional. But the prinicples that make up the base techniques must work or the technique should be thrown out and not taught to anyone. our discussion of combination three previously, Danjo, is a good example of this.

I am saying, also, that someone learning combo 3 who just hits and hanks the person down with brute strength is not learning kempo and when confronted with someone bigger and stronger will fail. They must learn it based on what makes it work and usually those are the same things that will make it work for a small woman and i teach everyone to do it that way because it is more technically sound and trains skill to a higher degree in my opinion.

Marlon

 

[kosho]

So both of you go speak with Prof Ingargiola and tell him how you feel....

I'm sure he has his reasons. He puts out some awesome martial artists who are tried and true in kickboxing arena's as well as other areas of martial arts.
You can reach him at www.shaolinkempo.com

Anyways let's stick to the thread...
It seems many of the folks are saying the same thing..The art is sound providing the practitioner is versatile enough to know and teach adaptation.

Remember the questions regards the art itself..no about "how many instructors there are..blah blah"..

Peace Brothers...
________________________________________________________

Thanks for the web add to one of my teachers. I talk with him about 4 -5 times a month by phone or email... So I know what he has for his students.
Myself and my school I have different ones. YES he puts out great martial students. you go to his web page and see my school under his web page and listed as a student... as with any thread we some times fall of the path... If we all had the same thinking we all would look and move the same...
Peace Bother
Kosho

 

[Danjo]

I am having trouble making my self clear these days i guess: I do not know what your
-as is- is so i will do my best to make plain my point.

Base techniques are just that, modifications within a specific framework to allow the techniques to function and be effective is just common sense,

base techniques are just base techniques to learn then one must be able to make modifications (not change the technique) within the framework of the technique in order for it to be effective and functional. But the prinicples that make up the base techniques must work or the technique should be thrown out and not taught to anyone. our discussion of combination three previously, Danjo, is a good example of this.

I am saying, also, that someone learning combo 3 who just hits and hanks the person down with brute strength is not learning kempo and when confronted with someone bigger and stronger will fail. They must learn it based on what makes it work and usually those are the same things that will make it work for a small woman and i teach everyone to do it that way because it is more technically sound and trains skill to a higher degree in my opinion.

Marlon

So are you saying that all SKK techniques will work equally well for women as they will for men?

 

[marlon]

Taught properly and trained properly, yes. Body types being what they are some things are easier than others...in general a smaller person would not use a tiger technique on a larger person etc....we have many techniques to be able to respond to differing situations and the logic behind the choice of technique is true regardless of gender.

peace,
marlon

 

[Danjo]

Taught properly and trained properly, yes. Body types being what they are some things are easier than others...in general a smaller person would not use a tiger technique on a larger person etc....we have many techniques to be able to respond to differing situations and the logic behind the choice of technique is true regardless of gender.

peace,
marlon

Well, I'm sceptical of this notion. Most of the SKK techniques that I've seen up to black belt would not, IMO, work as well for women as men unless they were modified and the strikes etc. were changed.

 

[Gufbal1982]

Well, I'm sceptical of this notion. Most of the SKK techniques that I've seen up to black belt would not, IMO, work as well for women as men unless they were modified and the strikes etc. were changed.

I concur with this. To be completely honest, I have stated before that thru the years, some of my techniques have been retrofitted to fit my gender and size.

Flying Crane...the styles that are SUPPOSED to be represented in SKK are Karate, Kung Fu (which I'm still waiting to see) and JuJitsu (Japanese, not Brazilian). If you read on the Villari website, you study 4 ranges of fighting...punching, kicking, holding and felling.

Carol...I never said there was something wrong with teaching gender specific techniques...in fact, I think it's good! What I think is wrong though is some instructors, in teaching this way, forget to give the principle behind the technique. Sure, modification is the key, but as I have always thought, the combinations are to teach a general example for a specific fighting principle. That's my theory though.

 

[marlon]

I concur with this. To be completely honest, I have stated before that thru the years, some of my techniques have been retrofitted to fit my gender and size.

Flying Crane...the styles that are SUPPOSED to be represented in SKK are Karate, Kung Fu (which I'm still waiting to see) and JuJitsu (Japanese, not Brazilian). If you read on the Villari website, you study 4 ranges of fighting...punching, kicking, holding and felling.

Carol...I never said there was something wrong with teaching gender specific techniques...in fact, I think it's good! What I think is wrong though is some instructors, in teaching this way, forget to give the principle behind the technique. Sure, modification is the key, but as I have always thought, the combinations are to teach a general example for a specific fighting principle. That's my theory though.

i hope we can train together sometime or you can with Shihan...by the way if you read my post it says something different than what is being responded to, but i will leave that to training.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Gufbal1982]

i hope we can train together sometime or you can with Shihan...by the way if you read my post it says something different than what is being responded to, but i will leave that to training.

Respectfully,
Marlon

Marlon...that would rock. I have nothing against you...I just like to argue.

 

[marlon]

Marlon...that would rock. I have nothing against you...I just like to argue.

i really do not take things personally and i like good discussions also....my best learning has often come out of being questioned.

Respectfully,
marlon