Where did pinon 4 come from?

[MeatWad2]

Where did pinon 4 come from?
Did cerio make it up?

 

[almost a ghost]

kyoshukin Karate I believe, at least that's what I've read for pinons 1, 3, 4, and 5, pinon 2 being a creation of Cerio's.

 

[exile]

Are you folks talking about a kata form? Is this something related to the Pinan katas, the set of kata Anko Itosu created at the very end of the 19th century based, at least according to certain sources, on a single much longer Chinese form? The spelling gives that impression... ?

 

[RevIV]

Pinions 3,4, and 5 come from the shotokan Heieans (sp sorry) they are almost the exact same. Here is how i describe them to my students. 3,4,5 were taught to Prof. Cerio - he Kemponized them - he then taught them to GM Villari who then Kung-funized them. So you now have 3 generations of forms that have changed from the original intent. I do get confused about the origins of 1, which is my fault because i have been told it but it does not resemble Heiean Shodan at all and yes 2 pinion was made up by Prof. Cerio. If you look at some of the Hawaiian forms they have a good shotokan influence.
In Peace
Jesse

 

[thetruth]

My old instructor (no longer with him) told us that the pinan kata were 4 short katas learnt before kusanku to make it easier to learn. I don't know if there is any truth to this as my old instructor was not known for telling the truth

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Hand Sword]

Intersting....From my talks with higher up, old schoolers, who knew Mr. Cerio, that, the forms came right out of a book, by Mas Oyama (Kyokushinkai system). At least 1, 3, 4, and 5. Number 2, he created himself.

 

[RevIV]

Intersting....From my talks with higher up, old schoolers, who knew Mr. Cerio, that, the forms came right out of a book, by Mas Oyama (Kyokushinkai system). At least 1, 3, 4, and 5. Number 2, he created himself.

I heard this too, but i also heard that there were very few Kempo organizations on the east coast (zero i think) so Prof. Cerio learned the forms to be part of a Shotokan Org. this way he had a board of people to talk and trade ideas with. This could be wrong and i am ok with this. But i do know that these forms are almost identical to the Shotokan Heieans. All of which i have learned to try and find some of the original meanings behind. Plus, i have a few black belts from Shotokan in my school and it is painful for them to do the forms a different way.
In Peace,
Jesse

 

[exile]

My old instructor (no longer with him) told us that the pinan kata were 4 short katas learnt before kusanku to make it easier to learn. I don't know if there is any truth to this as my old instructor was not known for telling the truth

Cheers
Sam:asian:

He wasn't wrong that there is some thinking that the Pinans did come from an earlier Chinese form which might well have been Kusanku, and that Anko Itosu created the Pinans on that basis. But the part about doing it to make it `easier to learn' Kusanku is up for grabs. Iain Abernethy has a detailed analysis of the Pinans in which he argues—very persuasively, I think—that each of the first three Pinans corresponds to a combat tech set for progressively closer fighting ranges, with the last two offering more advanced supplementary material. He's got the deepest technical analysis of the Pinans out there, I think. I have a link I can send you later to an article of his summarizing his results.

 

[marlon]

Pinions 3,4, and 5 come from the shotokan Heieans (sp sorry) they are almost the exact same. Here is how i describe them to my students. 3,4,5 were taught to Prof. Cerio - he Kemponized them - he then taught them to GM Villari who then Kung-funized them. So you now have 3 generations of forms that have changed from the original intent. I do get confused about the origins of 1, which is my fault because i have been told it but it does not resemble Heiean Shodan at all and yes 2 pinion was made up by Prof. Cerio. If you look at some of the Hawaiian forms they have a good shotokan influence.
In Peace
Jesse

It does resemble heien nidan in some systems as the 1st and 2nd have been inverted in some systems...it also resembles the taikyou 1 or fugayata 1 form i think

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

He wasn't wrong that there is some thinking that the Pinans did come from an earlier Chinese form which might well have been Kusanku, and that Anko Itosu created the Pinans on that basis. But the part about doing it to make it `easier to learn' Kusanku is up for grabs. Iain Abernethy has a detailed analysis of the Pinans in which he argues—very persuasively, I think—that each of the first three Pinans corresponds to a combat tech set for progressively closer fighting ranges, with the last two offering more advanced supplementary material. He's got the deepest technical analysis of the Pinans out there, I think. I have a link I can send you later to an article of his summarizing his results.

That would be very much appreciated

Marlon

 

[Danjo]

Oyama trained with Funakoshi and got his kata from him.

 

[exile]

That would be very much appreciated

Marlon

My pleasure—watch this space later on this evening...

Oyama trained with Funakoshi and got his kata from him.

Exactly right, and GF got them in turn from his teachers Azato and Itosu. Oyama kind of went his own way later on...

The funny thing is, there was a lot of criticism directed at Itosu for creating the Pinans. It was viewed as dilution of the art, turning karate in schoolchildren's games, which was what a lot of the hardcore karateka at the time—and it was a very hardcore time—thought about the Pinans. But they have terrific martial content!

 

[Shotochem]

I heard this too, but i also heard that there were very few Kempo organizations on the east coast (zero i think) so Prof. Cerio learned the forms to be part of a Shotokan Org. this way he had a board of people to talk and trade ideas with. This could be wrong and i am ok with this. But i do know that these forms are almost identical to the Shotokan Heieans. All of which i have learned to try and find some of the original meanings behind. Plus, i have a few black belts from Shotokan in my school and it is painful for them to do the forms a different way.
In Peace,
Jesse

As a former Shotokan guy myself, I can feel their pain. It just kills me sometimes how so many things are so similar yet so different. It really plays tricks with my old brain. I have to actively think about not doing them the way I learned them but the new way I am being taught.

 

[DavidCC]

He wasn't wrong that there is some thinking that the Pinans did come from an earlier Chinese form which might well have been Kusanku, and that Anko Itosu created the Pinans on that basis. But the part about doing it to make it `easier to learn' Kusanku is up for grabs. Iain Abernethy has a detailed analysis of the Pinans in which he argues—very persuasively, I think—that each of the first three Pinans corresponds to a combat tech set for progressively closer fighting ranges, with the last two offering more advanced supplementary material. He's got the deepest technical analysis of the Pinans out there, I think. I have a link I can send you later to an article of his summarizing his results.

Can I get a link to that article, too, please

 

[RevIV]

As a former Shotokan guy myself, I can feel their pain. It just kills me sometimes how so many things are so similar yet so different. It really plays tricks with my old brain. I have to actively think about not doing them the way I learned them but the new way I am being taught.

How do you do it. That would drive me nuts, kindof like how all the forms i have been learning have been changed about 5 times each since the time i started. Its the need to keep adding things to a system and not get rid of things that do not hold true anymore. Your 4 pinion i bet resembles very little to your Heien Yondan, but i bet you knew your bunkai better to the heien then to the pinion. And that is why the meanings get lost. On the flip side though through my experience i will go out on a limb saying that your self defense in most scenerios was inlightened when you joined Kempo.
In Peace
Jesse

 

[exile]

Can I get a link to that article, too, please

Hi guys, sorry this took so long—if you could see the state of my study at the moment you'd understand why it took me all night to find this article. Here's the link:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_10.asp

This will get you to the article, which gives some very suggestive background history. BUT...

... for a relentelessly detailed examination of the technical combat content of the Pinan/Heian katas, showing that in Itosu's time they were regarded not as a pattern within an overarching martial art but rather regard as a martial art on their own, take a look at the following links:

www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan1.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan2.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan3.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan4.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan5.asp

These articles constitute a short monograph on the combat system encoded in the Pinans, but recoverable with the aid of interpretation principles that UK karateka have in recent years spelled out in articles and books that are in effect users' manuals for combat applications of kata movements. Take a look at what IA has to say about the way in which the first three Pinans cover proressively closer fighting ranges, while the last two Pinans introduce more advanced and technically sophisticated ways of linking the techs in the first three Pinans.

By the way, I got all this stuff from IA's website, which is 100% free.

 

[almost a ghost]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwhYQmH6Dnw&mode=related&search=

 

[Matt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwhYQmH6Dnw&mode=related&search=

That's neat. I hadn't seen the kyokushinkai version. You can really see how the kyokushin folks really have a 'power' interpretation.

 

[Shotochem]

Strangely enough, I find that my bunkai and applications are even better than before. New style for me = more techniques different ways of thinking and more possibilities.

I have gotten more creative and brutal in my applications.:xtrmshock

Kempo is EVIL!!!!

 

[marlon]

Hi guys, sorry this took so long—if you could see the state of my study at the moment you'd understand why it took me all night to find this article. Here's the link:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_10.asp

This will get you to the article, which gives some very suggestive background history. BUT...

... for a relentelessly detailed examination of the technical combat content of the Pinan/Heian katas, showing that in Itosu's time they were regarded not as a pattern within an overarching martial art but rather regard as a martial art on their own, take a look at the following links:

www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan1.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan2.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan3.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan4.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan5.asp

These articles constitute a short monograph on the combat system encoded in the Pinans, but recoverable with the aid of interpretation principles that UK karateka have in recent years spelled out in articles and books that are in effect users' manuals for combat applications of kata movements. Take a look at what IA has to say about the way in which the first three Pinans cover proressively closer fighting ranges, while the last two Pinans introduce more advanced and technically sophisticated ways of linking the techs in the first three Pinans.

By the way, I got all this stuff from IA's website, which is 100% free.

Thank you very much. I once heard that Motubo considered different forms as different fighting systems also. This is why for a while i was looking to find out how the kempo forms were done originally, in an attempt to find some insight into this concept of differing fighting systems. Most skk forms are done the same way but if you look deep enough some good things can be found.

Respectfully,
Marlon