Joe Shuras
Orange Belt
Thank you, sir. Glad to help. I know first hand it can be very difficult researching martial arts with all the conflicting data out there. I try the best I can. - Joe
Where did DM/COMBOS originate from
- Thread starter MeatWad2
- Start date
Welcome back!! You were seriously missed around here!
Joe Shuras
Orange Belt
Thanks, Mike, it's appreciated.
RevIV
Black Belt
Thank you so much Joe,
That was a great read. #13 was in the original and like you said had some Korean influence. and 15 was also in the original Combo's, but is it possible that it still could be a Kung Fu influence. Stories read that GM Gascon trained with some kung fu masters in exchange for techniques. Also where is this take down in circle of the tiger from combo 11? Off the top of my head i can think of two take downs. One being the sweep after the double tiger rakes and the other being the leg hock after the simo. back fist and back punch. interesting though. I have seen combination #40 done on a Lima Lama tape from the early 80's - combo 5 was also on this tape but for a defense of a kick. It's good to see you back on the forums and time to go see if my dojo doors are frozen shut from yesterday ice capades.
Jesse
That was a great read. #13 was in the original and like you said had some Korean influence. and 15 was also in the original Combo's, but is it possible that it still could be a Kung Fu influence. Stories read that GM Gascon trained with some kung fu masters in exchange for techniques. Also where is this take down in circle of the tiger from combo 11? Off the top of my head i can think of two take downs. One being the sweep after the double tiger rakes and the other being the leg hock after the simo. back fist and back punch. interesting though. I have seen combination #40 done on a Lima Lama tape from the early 80's - combo 5 was also on this tape but for a defense of a kick. It's good to see you back on the forums and time to go see if my dojo doors are frozen shut from yesterday ice capades.
Jesse
Joe Shuras
Orange Belt
Hi Jesse, thank you very much. I feel "#14" had the Korean influence and yes, #15 could very well have Chinese influence-agreed! The takedown I refer to in #11 is your left hand bar arms the throat area as you grab the left upper lapel area of the gi, (shirt or jacket on the street), your right hand grabs the pant material of the attacker's right leg to the side or rear of his knee. You now put pressure on the throat and pull the leg (push/pull). In Circle of the Tiger you also assist by leg hocking his right leg with your left while doing this push/pull takedown. True about Sonny Gascon, he and John Leoning did seek out Kung Fu techniques in San Francisco's Chinatown in those early years.-Joe
RevIV
Black Belt
Ahhh,, ok,i know where you are talking about. I never had it with a grab low with the right so my brain just was not synapsing yet. we grabbed high on both. But if you are grabbing the knee i def. see the resemblence. The next move after putting him on the ground is the arm break, correct?
Jesse
Jesse
Joe Shuras
Orange Belt
In Circle of the Tiger, the next move after the takedown is to rise in a natural stance and follow up with a subtle short kick to his body. In #11, when we drop him, his right leg is up in the air as we grab his ankle, we jump in with our right shin/knee into his groin and turn him over for the submission (right foot planted by his right kidney/lower back area and pulling back on the leg causing pressure in the lower back - Joe
Joe Shuras
Orange Belt
Right, same idea.....I didn't know USSD taught Circle of the Tiger - Joe
14 Kempo
Grandmaster
Well, hopefully we are talking about the same form. It is taught at Shodan as a requirement for Nidan.
Looks like the NCK version shown here ...
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Joe Shuras
Orange Belt
14 Kempo, my home computer's down and I can't seem to pull up the video on the one I'm using now but it's probably the same form. Prof. Cerio told me this form was 'his baby', his favorite form, the nucleus of his system. I was with him once in Rhode Island when he performed it at a tournament and also did the application. In NCK it's given at Blue Belt level.
Circle of the Tiger used the basic concepts of KGS-SKK #1 kata for it's framework and built upon it form there. Circle has the kick punch, the high block/low block/punch, (vertical fist is favored over the horizontal fist in #1 kata), the side kicks are there but in different order, the right circle claw into left palm heel and kick, the double driving knife hands, the spear hand throat is a knife spear finger flick to the eye... He replaced the ankle throw with the takedown I described in a previous post. If your Circle starts off with facing 10 o'clock with a double block, front kick, slight shuffle into thrust punch to body, turn to 2 'oclock and repeat the sequence mirror image.....then it's the same form - Joe
Circle of the Tiger used the basic concepts of KGS-SKK #1 kata for it's framework and built upon it form there. Circle has the kick punch, the high block/low block/punch, (vertical fist is favored over the horizontal fist in #1 kata), the side kicks are there but in different order, the right circle claw into left palm heel and kick, the double driving knife hands, the spear hand throat is a knife spear finger flick to the eye... He replaced the ankle throw with the takedown I described in a previous post. If your Circle starts off with facing 10 o'clock with a double block, front kick, slight shuffle into thrust punch to body, turn to 2 'oclock and repeat the sequence mirror image.....then it's the same form - Joe
Gufbal1982
Purple Belt
It's the same form. I got it from a NCK person before I got it from USSD. The only difference is the tiger kick, which USSD claims is a rising blade kick
Joe Shuras
Orange Belt
Nick Cerio used that kick in Circle of the Tiger once after the cross block/downward block/ & simultaneous outward block/punch and after the right downward circular claw and left palm heel. It's from Chinese kung fu. He called it a rising side kick. I really don't care for it and rather use a front ball kick - Joe
Gufbal1982
Purple Belt
There is a difference with his rising side kick and theirs. I learned the Tiger kick has some sort of a chamber to it. The USSD version does not have a chamber. It just rises off the floor. I personally prefer the side kick to the body positioning.
Joe Shuras
Orange Belt
The rising side kick Prof. Cerio taught me did not have a chamber either, came right off the floor also - Joe
