Forms for training ...

[14 Kempo]

One can learn something without a partner and one should practice when there is no partner available. However, it's not as good, and you can only get so far that way. I have personally memorized many many techniques from watching them on video etc. only to find out that that was only about 25% of truly learning the technique. Timing, distance, precision are all things that require a live partner to perfect. In addition, you also need expert guidance to tell you what you're doing incorrectly and how to fix it. So, forms may have some value, but they are not the ideal training device IMO. I think their time is largely past.

I guess I have trouble communicating in writing, I was agreeing with that thought ... just bringing other thoughts to the table. I, in no way, train strictly on my own. I am one that tears down all techniques that I have and finds what works for me against all different sized opponents of different strengths and weaknesses. One thing is true throughout the years, it takes an open mind to learn.

 

[marlon]

Other then breathing and relaxation, all these attributes are better learned thru training with a live partner.
"Posture" and "balance" cannot be perfected without adjusting to the speed, reach, power, size, and movement of a live attacker or defender.
"Timing" is something that can only be developed against a live attacker or defender. What is the technique timed to if there's only a imaginary opponant?
I'm going to blaspheme here and say that practicing some katas too much, can cause one to develop bad habits.
Adriano Emperado developed katas from the defensive techniques that they practiced in class, instead of extracting techniques from 100 year old katas. Ed Parker did about the same thing by developing his own forms that reflected the techniques he wanted his students to learn.
But some other kenpo/kempo systems have adopted katas that go back to generations of Japanese and Okinawan martial arts.
One particular bad habit I see developing from a dependance on old kata is what I call the "kata punch". The kata punch is the drawing back of the fist that isn't punching to the hip or ribs. A good basic technique for beginners to develop the muscles, and power, but a bad fighting technique. Fight for real, or fight MMA or kickboxing, and you'll get knocked out if you draw you hand back to your side.
Emperado corrected this weakness by drawing the arm back to a boxers guard position. And Parker corrected the weakness by using the non-striking hand as a check.

I agree that live partner training is absolutely necessary and these concepts can only be perfected with a partner. I still think that they can best be seen and corrected by myself with forms...perhaps other teachers can do it with out forms but i cannot do it as well as i do with out forms . I wish i was that good. The pulling back to the hip is how i help to emphasize using the waist to generate power. this is beginner level after it is learned we do not use it as its function has been served. Again, others, better than myself, may be quite capable of doing these things without forms. I however still feel i need form training to get these things across properly in order to prepare those i teach to survive real life encounters and learn the art properly.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Danjo]

I still think that they can best be seen and corrected by myself with forms

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that you believe that forms are the best way to train?

The pulling back to the hip is how i help to emphasize using the waist to generate power. this is beginner level after it is learned we do not use it as its function has been served.

Well, this reflects the old "One-punch; one kill" mentality of the Japanese Karate systems. When you look at real fights, or even the early pre-glove UFC's, you start to see that that isn't very realistic. Boxers using a high guard also learn how to snap a punch out there using their waist and legs for power, but they don't sacrifice the defensive advantages that keeping your guard up gives you. I don't see why it would be neccessary to train a beginner differently and instill bad habits (fighting wise) into them by making them use the waist chambered draw-hand when punching. As somone who came out of Shotokan and SKK, I find that those little habits that were instilled early are the hardest to finally shake.

 

[INDYFIGHTER]

Just for the record: I've been studying Kempo for going on about four years and I've never learned a kata. I'd consider it, my teachers offered but I've always got the feeling like he's not that big on it. I've not asked but I remember when I started he was like "I can teach you katas if you want or we can just teach you the moves." and I got the feeling like he didn't think the kata's were essential to my learning the art. I figured I'd get there someday but now I'm studying third-brown and have yet to learn one. Matter of fact I think I'm going to ask him to teach me one just to see the look on his face.

 

[John Bishop]

I think most are probably in agreement that katas are a valuable training tool. I think the real question is, how valuable, and what percentage of your time do you spend on them?
I've already given my thoughts on their value to me. So to answer the second question, I would say my students spend 15-20% of class time on kata training. How much they do on their own, I can't say.

 

[LawDog]

This may be a little off thread but it is interesting.
Shodanqua in the very early 70's was called - Island Kata.
I was looking at my original instructors book and saw it there. I forgot all about it until just now.
This way of spelling of "Shodanqua" is also in the book.

 

[Danjo]

I think most are probably in agreement that katas are a valuable training tool. I think the real question is, how valuable, and what percentage of your time do you spend on them?
I've already given my thoughts on their value to me. So to answer the second question, I would say my students spend 15-20% of class time on kata training. How much they do on their own, I can't say.

That's pretty close. I review them about once every 5 days (aside from when we do them in class). One day it's punch counters, the next grab arts, the next, knife and club counters, the next two/three man counters and alphabets and the fifth day is Palama sets (katas). So that's about 20 % of the time at home too. (Unless I'm getting ready for a test then I go through all of it every day.

 

[marlon]

Somewhere on MT Doc Chapel makes the comment that each technique / combination is a mini form in and of itself...as opposed to freestyle free flow i would consider that assessment correct. the difference being that most do not work their forms on bodies (we do btw) whereas we mostly work our techniques on bodies. Danjo, my earlier comment was not the forms were the best way to train but that i felt that I, myself, could most easily see the things that i wanted focused on and correct them as basics when someone was doing a form. I am sure there are many others better than me who do not need such a tool but for now i still need this as a ** part*** of the training tools and methods for me to feel that i am doing the best for those who come to me to learn. This is what i wanted to say with the earlier post:

" I agree that live partner training is absolutely necessary and these concepts can only be perfected with a partner. I still think that they can best be seen and corrected by myself with forms...perhaps other teachers can do it with out forms but i cannot do it as well as i do with out forms "

i apologize for not being more clear


Respectfully,
Marlon