When to test for rank promotion.

[Tez3]

There's a few ways to grade and I think it may depend on your personality which way you prefer. JR 137 says he prefers to test others I know prefer to be assessed over a length of time, I don't think there is a 'wrong' way other than to just hand out belts for money. It's all part and parcel of finding the style and the style of teaching grading you are comfortable with.

 

[JR 137]

There's a few ways to grade and I think it may depend on your personality which way you prefer. JR 137 says he prefers to test others I know prefer to be assessed over a length of time, I don't think there is a 'wrong' way other than to just hand out belts for money. It's all part and parcel of finding the style and the style of teaching grading you are comfortable with.

Exactly. All I know is having a test. I've tested for every belt I've earned (except my initial white belts).

I honestly feel like I'd be missing out on something if my teacher didn't test me. But it's the whole process that I really appreciate (the test itself and all the learning that preceded it) rather than the result of the test itself. With the exception of my black belt test, they've all basically been like class on steroids. Nothing overly dramatic, just a real tough workout where I'm pushed outside my comfort zone.

My black belt test was an actual test, and it was basically combining every test I took previously, and adding a 30 man kumite on the end. Easily the most physically exhausting thing I've ever done. More than a test of proficiency, it was really a test of will.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I actually had a student fail a test he didn't know he was taking. He still doesn't know he failed it, and doesn't need to. His performance on the techniques simply wasn't yet up to snuff for the rank I was evaluating him for. He was close, so I'll probably be able to test him formally in a couple more weeks (and he'll know it's a test). At that point, it's very unlikely he'll fail.

So it sounds to me that at your school there are two parts to the test that students take to earn belts. The first part is where the student doesn't know they're being tested. Then if they pass that they can take the 2nd part which is a formal test where they know they're being tested.

 

[PhotonGuy]

@gpseymour

I have no problem sharing any personal feelings about testing. PM or ask here!

Well good for you. And its also good to be open and accepting to other school's methods of testing. All too often somebody will bash some other school's testing methods.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So it sounds to me that at your school there are two parts to the test that students take to earn belts. The first part is where the student doesn't know they're being tested. Then if they pass that they can take the 2nd part which is a formal test where they know they're being tested.

That's my approach.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That's my approach.

Well if a student passes the first part than they can feel confident that they will pass the second.

 

[PhotonGuy]

We have about 50 students total. About 20 kids and 30 adults. Currently only 4 adults who aren't black belts (me included), and 1 junior black belt. All black belt testing is done at our headquarters in NYC by our founder (Tadashi Nakamura). Our CI can promote up to I believe 4th dan, but we're only 2.5 hours away from headquarters, so he has us all test there. He attends all his students' black belt tests and rather us test under his teacher than under him.

So your school has the rank of junior black belt? Is testing for the junior black belt also done at the headquarters? I once briefly attended a school that had the junior black belt rank. Before you could be a full black belt you had to go through the rank of junior black belt and the junior black belt was distinguishable in that it had a broad white stripe through the center.

 

[JR 137]

So your school has the rank of junior black belt? Is testing for the junior black belt also done at the headquarters? I once briefly attended a school that had the junior black belt rank. Before you could be a full black belt you had to go through the rank of junior black belt and the junior black belt was distinguishable in that it had a broad white stripe through the center.

Junior black belt is tested for at headquarters, just like adults. They're not tested alongside adults. Juniors are initially given a black belt with the white stripe. After the student meets specific criterial, they're then given a fully embroiled black belt (still has white stripe); fully embroidered means school name and student's name with a dan stripe. That's done at the CI's request (no formal test at headquarters) without any charge.

Adult kyu ranks start at 14, but it's pretty rare to see an adult black belt under 16. Junior black belts test for adult black belt after they turn 15 AND fulfilled all adult requirements. I've heard it's not that uncommon to see 16 year olds still wearing a junior black belt because they're not ready. Then there's this junior black belt's older sister - rather than test for junior black belt, she opted to stay a brown belt and wait until she was ready to test for adult black belt. If she tested for junior black belt, she would've most likely tested for adult black belt after a year or so due to her age and ability.

Junior black belts aren't very common. My CI was given a new junior black belt syllabus because he hasn't had one in over a decade. He went over the syllabus with her and her mother (who's a 3rd dan) and I was somehow involved in the conversation. He's only had 3 or 4 juniors before her (she tested a few months ago). They're more common in the bigger dojos, but they really pale in comparison to black belt mills. Even junior black belt is taken very seriously. They typically average between 6-7 years, and most kids become adult age beforehand.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So lets say somebody starts training at your school at the age of 18, would they go through the rank of junior black? The school I went to everybody would go through the rank of junior black before reaching the rank of full black belt no matter how old you are.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So lets say somebody starts training at your school at the age of 18, would they go through the rank of junior black? The school I went to everybody would go through the rank of junior black before reaching the rank of full black belt no matter how old you are.

In most schools, "junior black" is a rank for someone not old enough to earn an adult black belt. What you're referring to is something I think I've only seen in one other school, where they called it a "probationary black", I think. This is a reasonable alternative to simply delaying the black belt longer.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In most schools, "junior black" is a rank for someone not old enough to earn an adult black belt. What you're referring to is something I think I've only seen in one other school, where they called it a "probationary black", I think. This is a reasonable alternative to simply delaying the black belt longer.

In Korean arts, it's called "chodanbo" which means, literally, "half a black belt" with the concept being that of probationary or or candidate. They wear a red/black belt, although the white stripe would work just as well, of course. It's a transition period, from student to teacher.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In Korean arts, it's called "chodanbo" which means, literally, "half a black belt" with the concept being that of probationary or or candidate. They wear a red/black belt, although the white stripe would work just as well, of course. It's a transition period, from student to teacher.

Thanks. This is essentially the same as the first-degree black belt in Shojin-ryu. They are still technically a student (don't get instructor certification until second degree).

 

[JR 137]

No. Junior black belt is only for children under 15 (don't hold me to the exact age). When I test for black belt in my current organization, I'll be a full-fledged 1st dan.

I've heard of some karate schools with a Shodan-ho. I'm lead to believe this is a standard probationary period.

My former organization had 3 brown belt levels. A solid brown belt, a brown belt with a black stripe through it (like the white stripe on a junior belt), and a half brown/half black belt. The half brown/black belt was the final belt before black. I didn't learn any new material during that rank. It was a minimum of 6 months of consistent training and refining my skills before I tested for black belt. My current organization doesn't have that, but the amount of time between advanced brown belt and black belt is 1 year, so realistically it's the same thing minus the additional belt.

Edit: I forgot to insert Photon's last post in this post and can't insert the quote now.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No. Junior black belt is only for children under 15 (don't hold me to the exact age). When I test for black belt in my current organization, I'll be a full-fledged 1st dan.

I've heard of some karate schools with a Shodan-ho. I'm lead to believe this is a standard probationary period.

My former organization had 3 brown belt levels. A solid brown belt, a brown belt with a black stripe through it (like the white stripe on a junior belt), and a half brown/half black belt. The half brown/black belt was the final belt before black. I didn't learn any new material during that rank. It was a minimum of 6 months of consistent training and refining my skills before I tested for black belt. My current organization doesn't have that, but the amount of time between advanced brown belt and black belt is 1 year, so realistically it's the same thing minus the additional belt.

Edit: I forgot to insert Photon's last post in this post and can't insert the quote now.

I think a lot of associations take one of these approaches (probationary black, part-black, and extended brown) to do much the same thing, which is to have a final vetting period before granting someone their black belt, which the public tends to view as an "expert".

 

[JR 137]

So lets say somebody starts training at your school at the age of 18, would they go through the rank of junior black? The school I went to everybody would go through the rank of junior black before reaching the rank of full black belt no matter how old you are.

I think a lot of associations take one of these approaches (probationary black, part-black, and extended brown) to do much the same thing, which is to have a final vetting period before granting someone their black belt, which the public tends to view as an "expert".

I agree.

My former Sensei treated it as a time to tie up any loose ends, work on weaknesses, sharpen up, and prepare for the shodan test. I liked that rank. Time will tell if I feel the same way after I go through my current organization's way of not having a clearly defined time such as this.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I do know there are schools that award the jr black belt to people in the children's class. When you are a jr black belt you are not a full black belt and to get a full black belt you have to be in the adults class. The place I briefly trained at was different, both children and adults had to get a jr black belt before they could get a full black belt. You started with white and then progressed up the various colors until you got to brown. Once you got to brown you would work on your jr black belt which would have a solid white stripe through the center. Then after that you could get a full black belt which was entirely black. It was a Kempo school in Hawaii, I don't know of any other schools that use this system.

 

[JR 137]

I do know there are schools that award the jr black belt to people in the children's class. When you are a jr black belt you are not a full black belt and to get a full black belt you have to be in the adults class. The place I briefly trained at was different, both children and adults had to get a jr black belt before they could get a full black belt. You started with white and then progressed up the various colors until you got to brown. Once you got to brown you would work on your jr black belt which would have a solid white stripe through the center. Then after that you could get a full black belt which was entirely black. It was a Kempo school in Hawaii, I don't know of any other schools that use this system.

In nearly every karate school I've seen, kids have a white stripe through every belt they wear. In both schools I've been in, the syllabus is the same for kids and adults. The difference is kids are responsible for less material than adults; meaning that they go through the material at a slower pace. A newly promoted junior black belt is learning more or less the same material as an adult who just promoted to adult (solid) brown belt.

 

[PhotonGuy]

In nearly every karate school I've seen, kids have a white stripe through every belt they wear. In both schools I've been in, the syllabus is the same for kids and adults. The difference is kids are responsible for less material than adults; meaning that they go through the material at a slower pace. A newly promoted junior black belt is learning more or less the same material as an adult who just promoted to adult (solid) brown belt.

My main dojo does not use stripes for children's belts, just solid colors for the belts of both children and adults, and in most of the dojos I've been to such a system hasn't been used. I've recently taken up BJJ and there you will sometimes see children with striped belts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My main dojo does not use stripes for children's belts, just solid colors for the belts of both children and adults, and in most of the dojos I've been to such a system hasn't been used. I've recently taken up BJJ and there you will sometimes see children with striped belts.

The system I came up under also did not use the striped belts. My instructor added them for the very young kids later. We knew who was a Jr. belt because of their age, and because youth students didn't get to wear the chest patches. If you were under 16, you generally (depending upon size) started in the youth program. After reaching green (white-yellow-blue-green), a youth student could train for and test to adult yellow.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I just feel if you are paying someone good money for a service, you should have full disclosure on what to expect for those services, and you shouldn't have to be intimidated for asking questions.

Try telling that to Chris Parker.