When to test for rank promotion.
- Thread starter Barnatha82
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Patience, patience. 
What America needs is an all encompassing, governing body to determine the rank and testing of all Karate students. I propose an amalgamation of former TSA and IRS employees, each with a full two years experience under their belts. It would unify everything, give us a Rank Whore top ten list, and free up all us instructors from testing our students so we could devote more time to the important things in the dojo, like, you know, selling t-shirts.
What America needs is an all encompassing, governing body to determine the rank and testing of all Karate students. I propose an amalgamation of former TSA and IRS employees, each with a full two years experience under their belts. It would unify everything, give us a Rank Whore top ten list, and free up all us instructors from testing our students so we could devote more time to the important things in the dojo, like, you know, selling t-shirts.
Actually, some folks learn really fast. I saw two people get arrogant because they progressed so much faster than others. Had they been made to wait, one of two things would likely have happened: they would have learned to be patient and quieted their arrogance, or they would have quit out of impatience. That same instructor now makes the fastest learners wait a bit longer on at least the first few belts, to see what their response is. If they get an attitude, he won't promote them until he feels like they've improved that attitude. If they remain patient, he will eventually let them progress at their natural speed.
These are rare cases, but they are often the reason instructors take an approach like that.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
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Yeah. Not sure there are that many successful people who are going to suggest you work less hard for something.
Patience, patience.
What America needs is an all encompassing, governing body to determine the rank and testing of all Karate students. I propose an amalgamation of former TSA and IRS employees, each with a full two years experience under their belts. It would unify everything, give us a Rank Whore top ten list, and free up all us instructors from testing our students so we could devote more time to the important things in the dojo, like, you know, selling t-shirts.
I won't respond to that. I haven't got my 100 ft long bo staff.
I see, so how does your system work? Are promotion tests scheduled at regular intervals? (every three months, every four months, ect.)
No, there are no pre-set schedules. Most instructors in NGA test students as they are ready. The nature of our tests makes it nearly impossible to test groups.
This I must say is absurd. If somebody isn't promoting often its because they aren't ready and I see nothing wrong with parents asking why their child isn't ready and what they need to work on in order to promote, or if its an older child, the child asking the instructor himself but it shouldn't be done in front of everybody.
As I said, that's absurd, but as it is sometimes the case parents can be absurd concerning their children's progress in sports including but not limited to the martial arts. That's why I believe its often best for parents to not be involved in their children's sports activities too much.
True enough.
So you have experience teaching academics. I think that can be a good thing if you also teach martial arts as although the two fields are different there are some similarities and I would think teaching academics can help with your ability to teach martial arts and vice versa.
Well yes. And I believe a student shouldn't be intimidated about asking why they're not promoting but as you said the student should be polite about it and shouldn't ask in front of others.
JR 137
Grandmaster
I think you misunderstood my posts. Parents/students should ask why they aren't promoting (in an appropriate manner), and teachers should state why (in an equally appropriate manner).
Students/parents shouldn't ask TO promote. The teacher should invite them to promote when they're ready, not when the student/parent thinks they're ready.
From your posts, I'm pretty sure we're actually on the same page.
Yes I do believe we are on the same page. So at your dojo are promotion tests scheduled at regular intervals? (Every three months, every four months, ect.)
JR 137
Grandmaster
Scheduled every 2 months. It usually alternates only having one or two people test, or 6 or so. There's a big group of kids (big group for our small school) that started together, and usually test together - a group of 4 siblings and 3 other kids started within a few weeks of each other. The first half of color belts have about a 3 month minimum (actually 30 classes), then 6 months to a year minimum as you get closer to black belt. Average time to 1st dan is a little over 5 years for adults. Typically longer for kids.
The only people who test are those who were invited. There's been several times where no one tested. Our CI just puts it on the calendar to keep himself organized. Tests (non-black belt) are held during normal class times, the test is run just like class, only more intense and very little correcting, and students who aren't testing still come to class to train and be a partner.
We have about 50 students total. About 20 kids and 30 adults. Currently only 4 adults who aren't black belts (me included), and 1 junior black belt. All black belt testing is done at our headquarters in NYC by our founder (Tadashi Nakamura). Our CI can promote up to I believe 4th dan, but we're only 2.5 hours away from headquarters, so he has us all test there. He attends all his students' black belt tests and rather us test under his teacher than under him.
I see. So students don't test until they're invited to do so. That being the case, is there that many students that fail? If you test only when you get the OK from your instructor when he sees you're ready than I would think that the percentage of students that fail must be very low if there's any students that fail at all. From some of the posts on this forum and from what I've observed myself in the research I've done in lots of different martial arts styles and schools that some students don't test until their instructor is 100 percent positive that they're ready for promotion in which case there is absolutely no failure during the test which makes it not really a test but a demonstration.
If you have some time, I'd love to chat with you about your experience with this, and how the instructors handle the testing. I'm looking at maybe changing how
Yes, in some schools the test has become a formality - really the first part of the promotion ritual. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as the instructor is evaluating the students along the way. In effect, the actual testing is done in drips and drabs until the instructor is satisfied with everything, then the student is invited to the formal test. I almost tend this way, though not by design. My students seem to be in no hurry for rank, so at some point I have to just point and say, "You. You test today."
Well as I said if the so called formal test is just that, a formality, and your performance in it does not affect the outcome than its a demonstration not a test. For something to be a real test the outcome would have to be determined by your performance in it, either pass/fail or some other sort of result such as a letter grade, test score, ect. Otherwise its just a demonstration not a real test.
For many places where the grading is a 'demonstration' or formality it's actually more of a graduation, the students are constantly being tested throughout their classes for attendance, attitude, techniques under pressure, sparring etc. different places run things differently it doesn't mean that is bad, just different. A lot of people can turn on a performance for a grading and do just enough during class so a constant evaluation of students is the way many instructors like to go.
Agreed. As I said, in some cases it effectively becomes part of the promotion ritual. I don't think this is a problem, so long as the reason it's only a formality is that the instructor is ensuring the student can pass the test before testing. Some instructors present tests to evaluate students. Others use them as final confirmation. The latter rarely produces failures, since the instructor is usually simply protecting his time by not testing anyone he feels has much chance of failing. These often still have scores - the students are just good enough by the time they test that they pretty much always exceed the minimum required score.
I actually had a student fail a test he didn't know he was taking. He still doesn't know he failed it, and doesn't need to. His performance on the techniques simply wasn't yet up to snuff for the rank I was evaluating him for. He was close, so I'll probably be able to test him formally in a couple more weeks (and he'll know it's a test). At that point, it's very unlikely he'll fail.
JR 137
Grandmaster
@gpseymour and @PhotonGuy
There's been too many posts and questions (for lack of a better word) to cut and paste quotes. I'll give you the gist of it...
I'm a 4th kyu in my current organization. I was preparing for my 2nd dan in my previous organization about 16 years ago before I left to go to grad school.
Colored belt testing...
One of the main points of colored belt testing is preparing the student for black belt testing. In both systems, students pretty much earned the promotion before being invited to test. Is it a test, demonstration, rite of passage, formality or any other similar description? Yes. It's all of those. My current teacher has owned his own dojo for about 30 years, and my previous one owned his for about 20 years at the time. Both failed a handful of students throughout their time. Students didn't fail due to not being proficient (they proved that beforehand); they failed because they gave up, did something outright disrespectful, repeatedly didn't follow directions, didn't show enough effort, etc. So I think it's accurate to call it a test of will and/or effort. I never saw anyone fail in either system, although students in both systems who've been around for a very long time have seen it once or twice.
Students are pushed out of their comfort zone. They're put under the pressure of scrutiny. The pressure and scrutiny increases as rank increases.
My current teacher does colored belt testing. My former teacher's teacher did colored belt testing until my teacher left that organization. After leaving, he did all testing. What I really liked about his testing was he had the senior students (myself included) fill out evaluation sheets of the students testing. We scored them on a 1-5 scale and wrote comments. He then added his comments afterward, and the students were given the sheets at a later date.
I'd much rather have a "test" than be awarded a new rank at some arbitrary time. Even without being told by my teacher, it lets me know where I stand; what I need to work on, how I perform under pressure, etc. I have respect for the schools that don't test. I understand why. I just strongly prefer the test for my own purposes.
Black belt testing...
I haven't been through it in my current organization, but this is what's been said...
This is true testing, as students can and do fail due to technique. My current teacher doesn't do black belt testing. He can, he just chooses to have his teacher do it instead. Dan testing is usually done over several sessions, with a different emphasis on each session - kihon, kata, partner drills, kumite, etc. There's typically 20-30 testing, and a handful usually fail. They're basically pulled aside after a session and told in private not to return for the subsequent sessions. Once they and their instructor feel confident, they can try again (the entire test). A classmate just tested for 1st dan a few months ago and said there were one or two less students every session (4 sessions total). Testing is only done with recommendation from the student's CI. My teacher has never had a student fail a black belt test. They've always been prepared well. He attends all of his students' black belt tests (he's only missed one or two individual sessions in his 30+ years).
My previous organization was very similar. We did one day testing for 1st and 2nd dans. Instead of several 3 hour sessions, we did a 6-8 hour one day test.
In both systems, there is a written essay required, which you discuss with the group before the physical portion starts.
There's been too many posts and questions (for lack of a better word) to cut and paste quotes. I'll give you the gist of it...
I'm a 4th kyu in my current organization. I was preparing for my 2nd dan in my previous organization about 16 years ago before I left to go to grad school.
Colored belt testing...
One of the main points of colored belt testing is preparing the student for black belt testing. In both systems, students pretty much earned the promotion before being invited to test. Is it a test, demonstration, rite of passage, formality or any other similar description? Yes. It's all of those. My current teacher has owned his own dojo for about 30 years, and my previous one owned his for about 20 years at the time. Both failed a handful of students throughout their time. Students didn't fail due to not being proficient (they proved that beforehand); they failed because they gave up, did something outright disrespectful, repeatedly didn't follow directions, didn't show enough effort, etc. So I think it's accurate to call it a test of will and/or effort. I never saw anyone fail in either system, although students in both systems who've been around for a very long time have seen it once or twice.
Students are pushed out of their comfort zone. They're put under the pressure of scrutiny. The pressure and scrutiny increases as rank increases.
My current teacher does colored belt testing. My former teacher's teacher did colored belt testing until my teacher left that organization. After leaving, he did all testing. What I really liked about his testing was he had the senior students (myself included) fill out evaluation sheets of the students testing. We scored them on a 1-5 scale and wrote comments. He then added his comments afterward, and the students were given the sheets at a later date.
I'd much rather have a "test" than be awarded a new rank at some arbitrary time. Even without being told by my teacher, it lets me know where I stand; what I need to work on, how I perform under pressure, etc. I have respect for the schools that don't test. I understand why. I just strongly prefer the test for my own purposes.
Black belt testing...
I haven't been through it in my current organization, but this is what's been said...
This is true testing, as students can and do fail due to technique. My current teacher doesn't do black belt testing. He can, he just chooses to have his teacher do it instead. Dan testing is usually done over several sessions, with a different emphasis on each session - kihon, kata, partner drills, kumite, etc. There's typically 20-30 testing, and a handful usually fail. They're basically pulled aside after a session and told in private not to return for the subsequent sessions. Once they and their instructor feel confident, they can try again (the entire test). A classmate just tested for 1st dan a few months ago and said there were one or two less students every session (4 sessions total). Testing is only done with recommendation from the student's CI. My teacher has never had a student fail a black belt test. They've always been prepared well. He attends all of his students' black belt tests (he's only missed one or two individual sessions in his 30+ years).
My previous organization was very similar. We did one day testing for 1st and 2nd dans. Instead of several 3 hour sessions, we did a 6-8 hour one day test.
In both systems, there is a written essay required, which you discuss with the group before the physical portion starts.
JR 137
Grandmaster
I'll just reply to the last part, about dan testing. In the association I came up in, testing for shodan (first dan) was the only one with really extensive testing (nidan had some fairly difficult technical testing, just less extensive than shodan, unless the tester decided to retest shodan material - sandan and above were honorary ranks). The shodan testing happened in multiple sessions, including curriculum development, self-defense scenarios (nearly randori, except there were attacks assigned in secret to the attackers), forms (classical techniques), applications, strikes and blocks, vocabulary, and three concept papers. Most weren't really "failable", in that the candidate would be asked to fix the issues with specific techniques (a round kick, for instance) and come back to re-test just that one part. The classical techniques test was theoretically failable, but nearly everyone would do well enough to only have to re-test a few techniques that needed some last polishing. The self-defense test was failable, and I saw people from two schools fail it (one at brown, one at black belt).
My testing curriculum at every rank (even the first student colored belt) mirrors this multi-part testing, though it is obviously far less rigorous and extensive at the lower ranks.
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