When to test for rank promotion.

[Tames D]

While I agree, I think more have given people whatever they want so long as they're paying. How many people earn their black belt in 2 years? How many 8 year old black belts are there? How many from either group can fight their way out of a wet paper bag?

A TKD school down the road from my dojo has several 4th dans around 13-15 years old. Hopefully they'll achieve grand master status for their 30th birthday.

As Mr. Miyagi said, "Balance most important, Daniel San."

I agree with everything you are saying. And I didn't mean any disrespect. I just feel if you are paying someone good money for a service, you should have full disclosure on what to expect for those services, and you shouldn't have to be intimidated for asking questions.

 

[Tames D]

Nope. It has techniques called "soccer mom doesn't tell us when you promote," "rank is earned rather than given," and "you must have us confused with the McDojo black belt drive thru."

Sounds like you belong to a very good school. And you're right, soccer moms shouldn't determine promotions. However, if she is paying for the service, she should have the right ask questions regarding the program, without intimidation or consequences. Just my opinion.

 

[drop bear]

While I agree, I think more have given people whatever they want so long as they're paying. How many people earn their black belt in 2 years? How many 8 year old black belts are there? How many from either group can fight their way out of a wet paper bag?

A TKD school down the road from my dojo has several 4th dans around 13-15 years old. Hopefully they'll achieve grand master status for their 30th birthday.

As Mr. Miyagi said, "Balance most important, Daniel San."

Different argument. If you sell gradings. Either through class fees or specific costs. Then the person paying for that should be able to ask about what they are paying for without it being a thing.

 

[JR 137]

I agree with everything you are saying. And I didn't mean any disrespect. I just feel if you are paying someone good money for a service, you should have full disclosure on what to expect for those services, and you shouldn't have to be intimidated for asking questions.

Exactly. The criteria and expectations should be made clear from the beginning. Every time I've promoted, I've asked my instructor what's required for my new rank.

I'm not saying you should never ask why you're not promoting (not you personally); just that there's a way to do it. I've seen several parents ask why their kids aren't promoting right in front of everyone. My previous CI was good about it, saying he'll speak to them privately after he's done. Most were good about it, some weren't. A few would say (in front of the crowd) "I want my kid to promote (at the upcoming test)." He always handled it in the same professional way, but again, there's irrational people out there who want the answer they want, and want it immediately.

People seem to forget that they agreed to things being done a certain way when they signed up. They forget that they trusted the CI's judgement when they came in. They forget they agreed to promotions being at the CIs discretion. They forget that if he's holding up his end of the agreement, they need to as well. They forget they can go somewhere else if they feel they're not getting what they paid for.

I teach science at a private school. The parents agree to make their kids wear a uniform, act a certain way, etc. when enrolling their children. They're all about everything we do. Then comes time to follow through. They don't like to hear "you agreed to this when you enrolled" when things become inconvenient.

I'm all for accountability. If a student isn't promoting, the CI should absolutely be transparent about it.

 

[JR 137]

Different argument. If you sell gradings. Either through class fees or specific costs. Then the person paying for that should be able to ask about what they are paying for without it being a thing.

Absolutely. Tell the student/parent exactly why. But paying doesn't give the student/parent the right to make it a thing. One parent told my old CI "I pay you salary." My CI politely responded with "then fire me."

 

[Buka]

Than how would a student know how the system works? Lets say a student isn't clear about how promotion works in your dojo and so they ask about it, what would be another six months just because a student asked about how promotion works?

They are told ahead of time. And reminded. Not trying to mess with them, just the way we always used to do it.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

And this is why I do not train kids lol

Nothing to add, just stopping by

 

[PhotonGuy]

And this is why I do not train kids lol

Nothing to add, just stopping by

So how old does a student have to be to be trained by you?

 

[Grenadier]

I just started karate and I asked my instructor when I will get my first promotion(Yellow belt). He told me that he would randomly invite no more than 3 students to test at a time. He then told me that he keeps attendance and that he will only test students who attend at least twice a week with a minimum of 30 class training hours, but he would prefer that stuents have 40 class hours before testing. He does not charge testing fees. Is this an appropriate approach to testing?

Other than not having more than 3 students test at one time as well as the lack of an exam fee, what your sensei told you isn't unusual when it comes to a commercial dojo.

It makes perfect sense to keep attendance, and that the required number of hours is only a minimum standard that your sensei would most likely want you to supersede. Some people might be fine with the minimum, while others will need more than just the minimum.

Regarding the limited number of people testing at once, I can understand if he wants to scrutinize each and every test taker, especially if he doesn't have any assistant instructors available.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah the reality is people want belt ranks.

(Ssshhh. don't tell anyone. But that is why you have them in the first place)

I don't know how much "want" factored into Kano's development of colored belt rankings. I'm sure it was in there, along with the ability to match competitors by skill level. The "want" was the major reason they are retained in Shojin-ryu. Folks convinced me they were helpful for motivating students. Somehow, my students didn't get that memo, so I have two who have been with me more than a year who still haven't tested for their first belt.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. But the martial styles have this on offer. Have integrated into their system that you can/should work towards higher rankings. Otherwise they would not have belts.

But at the same time can't openly chase these ranking because it is seen as a social faux pas.

Actually, neither of those statements is true of every school. Heck, neither was true of where I trained for the longest. We were encouraged to test only because we weren't allowed the next part of the curriculum until we tested, but I often spent more than a year at each student rank (13 years to black: white, yellow, blue, green, purple, brown). So, no rush to get there, and nobody seemed to mind. And we could ask anything we wanted to, including asking to schedule our test when we felt ready. The only difference with me is that I will occasionally simply tell a student they are testing today, whereas my instructor left it to us to decide that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think alot of school owners have forgotten who pays who.

Meh. It's my job to ensure the quality of the program and the art as I teach it. If a student doesn't like the way I do that, the traditions we follow, etc., there's a better school for them somewhere else. I don't forget who pays whom, and there's a reason they pay me. I don't coddle, and there's a well-conceived reason for everything in how I run the program.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And this is why I do not train kids lol

Nothing to add, just stopping by

This is one of the reasons I don't teach kids, either. That and the fact that when I did (at my instructor's school) I learned they aren't physically ready to learn the complete art, and that's where I want to spend my time.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

So how old does a student have to be to be trained by you?

15 at least.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sounds like you belong to a very good school. And you're right, soccer moms shouldn't determine promotions. However, if she is paying for the service, she should have the right ask questions regarding the program, without intimidation or consequences. Just my opinion.

I think the original post you're referring to was more about asking to test/promote. In some styles/schools, that's entirely the prerogative of the instructor, and the student has no say. Given that, some instructors see it as being impatient if a student asks to test (as opposed to asking what he/she needs to do to be ready to test), and will use a delay in testing to help encourage patience.

It's not my approach, but as long as the culture of the school is built to make this reasonable (like giving them the information they need), I see no issue with it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

They are told ahead of time. And reminded. Not trying to mess with them, just the way we always used to do it.

Well lets say there's still something a student doesn't understand about how the system works. Would they be penalized just for asking for some clarification?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yeah. But the martial styles have this on offer. Have integrated into their system that you can/should work towards higher rankings. Otherwise they would not have belts.

But at the same time can't openly chase these ranking because it is seen as a social faux pas.

Well there are some students who just want to develop skill and don't really care about rank, or there are some students who get to a certain rank and then don't care about pursuing any more rank they just want to develop more skill, and there are some students who take up the martial arts for entirely different reasons, maybe they want to get in shape, lose weight, ect. and their reasons have nothing to do with rank.
But the fact of the matter is if you are working towards higher rankings as you state, you are chasing it any way you look at it.

 

[Buka]

Well lets say there's still something a student doesn't understand about how the system works. Would they be penalized just for asking for some clarification?

I've always been patient with people who may have learning disabilities, it's part of the responsibility of teaching. People do not always understand things in the same way. Your communication skills have to be constantly honed in order to help any and all students in your care. I will always continue to do that.

Besides, I've only fed a small handful of students to wild dogs.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I've always been patient with people who may have learning disabilities, it's part of the responsibility of teaching. People do not always understand things in the same way. Your communication skills have to be constantly honed in order to help any and all students in your care. I will always continue to do that.

Besides, I've only fed a small handful of students to wild dogs.

Well good. Communication is key in teaching, for both the teacher and the learner.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think the original post you're referring to was more about asking to test/promote. In some styles/schools, that's entirely the prerogative of the instructor, and the student has no say. Given that, some instructors see it as being impatient if a student asks to test (as opposed to asking what he/she needs to do to be ready to test), and will use a delay in testing to help encourage patience.

This is what Im against and what I've tried to point out in the past. Im not against students having to be told by the instructor before they can test what Im against is an instructor requiring patience in addition to knowledge and skill in order to test and promote. This is why I've said before that I thought the word patience shouldn't be in a martial artists vocabulary although I had the wrong impression at the time and I was trying to make my point the wrong way. It was years back on a different martial arts forum, and this was long before I joined this forum, that somebody said that earning belts requires more than just skill it also requires patience and for that reason his instructor does not let students test until he tells them they can test and his instructor might not give the student the OK to test even if the student has good enough skill because he wants the student to be patient. Well here's the thing, unless a student is going to a McDojo or a black belt drive through than earning belts will require patience. Why? Because if a student is not going to one of those places I just mentioned than earning belts will require a certain amount of knowledge and skill. And obtaining knowledge and skill requires patience. Lets face it, a student is not going to have the knowledge and skill of a black belt on day one if they're going to a good legitimate school. And any way you look at it obtaining knowledge and skill takes time, it will take a student years to acquire the knowledge and skill of a black belt and so therefore if a student has obtained the necessary knowledge and skill for a particular belt than that shows they've got patience because they wouldn'tve acquired the knowledge and skill if they didn't have patience in the first place. So for an instructor to require knowledge and skill for belts they are automatically requiring patience. So what Im against is an instructor holding back a student who has good enough knowledge and skill for a belt because they want the student to be more patient because the student wouldn't've developed the knowledge and skill without patience in the first place.