When the kata is applied to self defense

[Hanzou]

Oops didn't see that answer.

I think it is quite natural that Ueshiba would not appear on Horiguchi's boxing fight record since Ueshiba was not a boxer. However, Horiguchi liked to cross-train and used to go to dojos of famous masters to fight/spar with them, he has reportedly done so with Choki Motobu (karate) and Kyuzo Mifune (judo) so that encounter is not unlikely to have happened, though I'll admit that the only source for it are students of Ueshiba.

For the encounter between Kenshiro Abbe and Morihei Ueshiba, it is recounted by Henry Ellis who heard it from his teacher (Abbe) himself. Abbe met Ueshiba in a train and the old man said "now please break my finger since you are so strong". Abbe grabbed the finger, couldn't break it and got slammed into the ground and immobilized by Ueshiba. Abbe then asked to become Ueshiba's student. Kenshiro Abbe, a judo champion famous for defeating Masahiko Kimura and a man used to live fighting and competition against the best judoka, used to tell people that he was incapable of breaking Osensei's finger.

One could also cite Yasuhiro Konishi, famous karate teacher that said that Ueshiba was the best martial artist he ever met, or Shoji Nishio, a martial arts genius that held high ranks in both judo and karate and yet decided to study and teach aikido after he saw and felt how great Osensei was. He came to see him with his own eyes after his karate teacher said Ueshiba was a "phantom". "I was amazed that there was someone that even Sodeyama Sensei couldn’t strike. It was O-Sensei [Morihei Ueshiba]… Anyway, I went to see aikido and immediately joined the dojo. I was told to go and take a look at aikido, but I never went back to karate!"

And there are countless examples of famous, recognized martial arts experts from all kinds of backgrounds that, upon seeing or fighting with Ueshiba, said "ok this guy's the best martial artist I've ever met". My point is that it is very difficult to believe that all of them were gullible people who could not distinguish a fake master.

All clues point to Ueshiba being the real deal.

None of those sources are objective though, that's the problem. Just because your friends and students hold you in high regard doesn't mean that you were an amazing fighter. For example, why is Rickson Gracie and Kazushi Sakuraba considered great fighters? Because we have their fight record and we have objective evidence of them fighting people. If we didn't have that, their disciples would gush over how amazing they were but there would be no corroborating evidence to support that belief. I could say that I rolled with Rickson and it was like he knew my moves before I did them, and his top pressure felt like being underneath 30 men. All of that is just exaggerated nonsense that amounts to nothing.

We should also remember that Ueshiba's disciples aren't exactly lighting the world afire with their fighting ability either. That casts further doubt on his actual fighting ability.

 

[Hanzou]

BTW, this article intrigued me:

Are you an unwitting participant in the demise of Aikido? by Stanley Pranin – Aikido Journal

Basically it discusses that Aikido is declining globally, and it lists a variety of reasons why. In the process, it disparages popular fighting arts as "flashy" and laughingly paints exponents of those arts as simplistic brutes who just want to destroy people. All the while, the author gushes over O' Sensei as if he was some sort of almighty deity and is seemingly confused as to why his disciples are somehow unable to transfer his "magic" to other people. There are even commentators in that article saying that O'Sensei was the pinnacle of the art and no one can match it.

I find this sort of thing disturbing on multiple levels. IMO, the reasons for Aikido's decline is very obvious and quite clear. People want results, not promises. You can say all the crap you want about O'Sensei's feats of magic, but if Aikido isn't teaching you how to stop a takedown or a punch in the face, none of that matters.

Amazingly people like the author are purposely avoiding those reasons because he has a cult mentality.

 

[now disabled]

BTW, this article intrigued me:

Are you an unwitting participant in the demise of Aikido? by Stanley Pranin – Aikido Journal

Basically it discusses that Aikido is declining globally, and it lists a variety of reasons why. In the process, it disparages popular fighting arts as "flashy" and laughingly paints exponents of those arts as simplistic brutes who just want to destroy people. All the while, the author gushes over O' Sensei as if he was some sort of almighty deity and is seemingly confused as to why his disciples are somehow unable to transfer his "magic" to other people. There are even commentators in that article saying that O'Sensei was the pinnacle of the art and no one can match it.

I find this sort of thing disturbing on multiple levels. IMO, the reasons for Aikido's decline is very obvious and quite clear. People want results, not promises. You can say all the crap you want about O'Sensei's feats of magic, but if Aikido isn't teaching you how to stop a takedown or a punch in the face, none of that matters.

Amazingly people like the author are purposely avoiding those reasons because he has a cult mentality.

You are aware that The author is now dead ?

I love how you slag of an art but when you are called on something you refuse to answer lol ....but hey ho you keep it up

 

[now disabled]

We should also remember that Ueshiba's disciples aren't exactly lighting the world afire with their fighting ability either. That casts further doubt on his actual fighting ability.

That could be because umm the youngest of Ueshiba's disciples (and I am assuming you are meaning Ueshiba Morihei) are well advanced in years and they never trained as fighters ....so your point is?

 

[Hanzou]

That could be because umm the youngest of Ueshiba's disciples (and I am assuming you are meaning Ueshiba Morihei) are well advanced in years and they never trained as fighters ....so your point is?

My point is that the modern crop of Bjj/MMA fighters are superior to the former crop of Bjj/MMA fighters. Why? Because the art is evolving and getting better as the years roll on. When the pinnacle of your style was the founder who died over 50 years ago, then your style has a seriously flawed teaching model.

 

[O'Malley]

Although I get your point on having objective proof, you are comparing Ueshiba to people who were not even born when he died (well, not really since Rickson was 10 in '69).

Also, Ueshiba was not registered in any federation that could have kept track of those matches since they were not even matches: he was not interested in competition and actually disregarded it, the fights he was in came from him standing up to any challenge people threw at him and sparring with other stylists to hone his skills.

So, no competition and informal "dojo busting" matches where no one had a cell phone to register what was going on. The only source left is made of numerous accounts by all the martial arts experts that actually saw and felt him. BTW I'm not aware of any testimony of someone from the same period saying "Ueshiba has no fighting ability".

Concerning modern proponents of the art, again the non competitive nature of aikido makes it difficult to track fight records. One can find testimonies about Shioda, Tohei, Tadashi Abe, Minoru Mochizuki and the like but they refrained from competing by loyalty to the Founder.

Now in modern times mainstream aikido has been distorted on a technical level to make it more accessible (the Aikikai is open about this) and the Aikikai is bent on absorbing every other organization, promoting its way of doing aikido (which is not the Founder's but is respectable on a philosophical level and certainly brings more peace to the world) and preventing its members from ever competing.

Since dojo busting is not practiced anymore, the only way to get a good fighting record for aikido would be to find someone that had both interest in competing and good aikido fighting skills. I'm sure there are people who are interested but don't have the skills (like the guy from "aikido vs MMA"), as for the people that have the skills but no interest, who knows?

 

[O'Malley]

My point is that the modern crop of Bjj/MMA fighters are superior to the former crop of Bjj/MMA fighters. Why? Because the art is evolving and getting better as the years roll on. When the pinnacle of your style was the founder who died over 50 years ago, then your style has a seriously flawed teaching model.

I agree. The Aikikai (main aikido organization which was founded by Osensei's son) deliberately promotes a "simplified" version of aikido which is more accessible and does away with a lot of the principles that made the Founder the fighter that he was. Some teachers were taught the older style stuff in case they had to defend their dojos but the goal of the organization has been to move away from fighting since day one. And Osensei himself taught while using religious metaphors that did not really get his technical points across so we cannot even know whether his students understood the art.

 

[Hanzou]

Although I get your point on having objective proof, you are comparing Ueshiba to people who were not even born when he died (well, not really since Rickson was 10 in '69).

Also, Ueshiba was not registered in any federation that could have kept track of those matches since they were not even matches: he was not interested in competition and actually disregarded it, the fights he was in came from him standing up to any challenge people threw at him and sparring with other stylists to hone his skills.

Well then we could compare Ueshiba to the various Judoka who were doing exhibition matches at the turn of the 20th century (Maeda was one such Judoka), or Huo Yuanjia who was challenging European wrestlers and fighters in the 1910s. Those events were widely reported in newspapers. Where was Ueshiba at this time? He didn't need to be part of any federation, he just needed to make an open challenge and have the media record the incident, yet we have nothing but a bunch of stories told by his loyal followers.

 

[now disabled]

My point is that the modern crop of Bjj/MMA fighters are superior to the former crop of Bjj/MMA fighters. Why? Because the art is evolving and getting better as the years roll on. When the pinnacle of your style was the founder who died over 50 years ago, then your style has a seriously flawed teaching model.

You are again founding this on what ?

and again you are making statements and when you are called on them avoid answering

 

[now disabled]

Well then we could compare Ueshiba to the various Judoka who were doing exhibition matches at the turn of the 20th century (Maeda was one such Judoka), or Huo Yuanjia who was challenging European wrestlers and fighters in the 1910s. Those events were widely reported in newspapers. Where was Ueshiba at this time? He didn't need to be part of any federation, he just needed to make an open challenge and have the media record the incident, yet we have nothing but a bunch of stories told by his loyal followers.

Where was Ueshiba lol are you serious lol ...truly are you lol??????????????????

 

[Hanzou]

You are again founding this on what ?

and again you are making statements and when you are called on them avoid answering

That judgement call isn't coming from me, Aikidoka are saying that themselves.

 

[Hanzou]

Where was Ueshiba lol are you serious lol ...truly are you lol??????????????????

Ueshiba was in his 20s and 30s during the time of various Judoka having exhibition matches with wrestlers and other fighters. Why wasn't such an amazing fighter participating in these highly publicized matches? There were European and American fighters all over Asia looking to test the might of the Asian fighting arts, yet somehow Ueshiba avoided all this but was more than happy to fight in the equivalent of backyards and garages?

 

[now disabled]

That judgement call isn't coming from me, Aikidoka are saying that themselves.

Who are saying that ?

 

[Hanzou]

Who are saying that ?

Did you read the article I posted?

 

[now disabled]

Ueshiba was in his 20s and 30s during the time of various Judoka having exhibition matches with wrestlers and other fighters. Why wasn't such an amazing fighter participating in these highly publicized matches? There were European and American fighters all over Asia looking to test the might of the Asian fighting arts, yet somehow Ueshiba avoided all this but was more than happy to fight in the equivalent of backyards and garages?

Right ok

He was in the army around 1903 and studied ju jutsu and judo (if you want the styles then just ask and I will tell you ) then he went to settle in Hokkaido around 1910 and around 1915 he met Takeda Sokaku and started his study of Daito-ryu

answer your question or do you require more that you can try and say is either false or myth ???

 

[O'Malley]

BTW, this article intrigued me:

Are you an unwitting participant in the demise of Aikido? by Stanley Pranin – Aikido Journal

Basically it discusses that Aikido is declining globally, and it lists a variety of reasons why. In the process, it disparages popular fighting arts as "flashy" and laughingly paints exponents of those arts as simplistic brutes who just want to destroy people. All the while, the author gushes over O' Sensei as if he was some sort of almighty deity and is seemingly confused as to why his disciples are somehow unable to transfer his "magic" to other people. There are even commentators in that article saying that O'Sensei was the pinnacle of the art and no one can match it.

I find this sort of thing disturbing on multiple levels. IMO, the reasons for Aikido's decline is very obvious and quite clear. People want results, not promises. You can say all the crap you want about O'Sensei's feats of magic, but if Aikido isn't teaching you how to stop a takedown or a punch in the face, none of that matters.

Amazingly people like the author are purposely avoiding those reasons because he has a cult mentality.

Well, I don't read it as that insulting to other styles. He deplorates the fact that, in order to make aikido look "flashy" and effective in front of violent styles, people often resort to choreographed demonstrations where uke is only thrown because he's compliant.

Well then we could compare Ueshiba to the various Judoka who were doing exhibition matches at the turn of the 20th century (Maeda was one such Judoka), or Huo Yuanjia who was challenging European wrestlers and fighters in the 1910s. Those events were widely reported in newspapers. Where was Ueshiba at this time? He didn't need to be part of any federation, he just needed to make an open challenge and have the media record the incident, yet we have nothing but a bunch of stories told by his loyal followers.

He did not make challenges, people came to him and he beat them.

"a buch of stories told by his loyal followers"

Letting aside all the people (and there is a LOT of them) that held high ranks in other martial arts and threw everything out of the window to go study under him, we have documents from Jigoro Kano sending his students to study under Ueshiba after having seen him (and they never went back to judo), or accounts by people from other arts who did not become his students but said he was the greatest, from the top of my head J. Kano, Yasuhiro Konishi, Hideo Sonobe, Haga Junichi.

Edit: since he was already the most famous martial artist in Japan, it was easy to go and chellenge him and he was not the one with something to prove, are we even aware of any person ever saying "hey, I beat Ueshiba"?

 

[now disabled]

Did you read the article I posted?

Matey I have read alot of things written by Stan Pranin and I am well aware of his views but he was very much a man wo promoted Aikido and if you care to dig deeper he was very much involved in documenting Aikido and he also followed Saito sensei and on many of his travels he acted as his translator so you may be jumping of the wrong platform again if you are suggesting that the late Stan Pranin is slagging of Aikido

 

[Hanzou]

Right ok

He was in the army around 1903 and studied ju jutsu and judo (if you want the styles then just ask and I will tell you ) then he went to settle in Hokkaido around 1910 and around 1915 he met Takeda Sokaku and started his study of Daito-ryu

answer your question or do you require more that you can try and say is either false or myth ???

And there were various "Merikan" and other fighting exhibitions in Japan and China in this period and even in the 20s.

Again, where was Ueshiba?

 

[now disabled]

And there were various "Merikan" and other fighting exhibitions in Japan and China in this period and even in the 20s.

Again, where was Ueshiba?

Studying Daito ryu ....what part of that are you not getting ...

 

[Hanzou]

Well, I don't read it as that insulting to other styles. He deplorates the fact that, in order to make aikido look "flashy" and effective in front of violent styles, people often resort to choreographed demonstrations where uke is only thrown because he's compliant.

I'm talking about this portion:

Young people prefer the sensationalized martial arts they see depicted on the movie screen in gory displays of violence. They want something they can learn quickly and turn themselves into superb fighting machines in record time. They have no moral compass to guide them in the meting out of techniques designed to kill and maim. For them, if the other guy starts a fight, then he is fair game to be taken down a notch.. If he gets hurts in the scuffle, then was happens to him is well-deserved. Aggression inspired by arrogance lead to destruction and humiliation, a lesson learned by Japan in the aftermath of World War II.

Yeah, it's clear that he looks down on such styles.

He did not make challenges, people came to him and he beat them.

"a buch of stories told by his loyal followers"

Letting aside all the people (and there is a LOT of them) that held high ranks in other martial arts and threw everything out of the window to go study under him, we have documents from Jigoro Kano sending his students to study under Ueshiba after having seen him (and they never went back to judo), or accounts by people from other arts who did not become his students but said he was the greatest, from the top of my head J. Kano, Yasuhiro Konishi, Hideo Sonobe, Haga Junichi.

Edit: since he was already the most famous martial artist in Japan, it was easy to go and chellenge him and he was not the one with something to prove, are we even aware of any person ever saying "hey, I beat Ueshiba"?

Well when there's no one there to corroborate the stories besides Ueshiba himself or someone who eventually became his disciple, how can we ever determine if he ever lost? We also can't determine if he actually ever won. The evidence surrounding him and the art that he created really doesn't support any of the claims.