When is someone "Too young" for MA or for a BB for that matter?

[Fing Fang Foom]

Tez raised an interesting point about the age of kids participating in Martial Arts... It is true that most kids in this country at least do not travel to northern china and sit outside the shaolin temple and wait to be accepted as a pupil... but is there an age that is "too" young?

How about earning a Black Belt? Is there an age that is "too" young to earn one? (I have actually heard there are some MA's that have a minimum age limit for BBs).

Would Love to hear Everyone's opinion on these two subjects.
Or let us know when you started MA's for that matter

 

[mango.man]

I think 5 is a good age to start. But maybe that is because that is when I signed up my kid.

I am fine with the Kukkiwon standard of a minimum age of 15 for a dan rank. Younger ages should be promoted to a poom ranks. I like 12 as a minimum age for a poom rank.

Of course my kid was 9 when she got her 1st poom. I believe that was too young.

 

[Fing Fang Foom]

I think 5 is a good age to start. But maybe that is because that is when I signed up my kid.

I am fine with the Kukkiwon standard of a minimum age of 15 for a dan rank. Younger ages should be promoted to a poom ranks. I like 12 as a minimum age for a poom rank.

Of course my kid was 9 when she got her 1st poom. I believe that was too young.

Did you have MA experience when you signed your child up or was she the first? Just curious.

I am not familar with all the terms you used (but it gives me a chance to look some of them up and learn).

Maybe you can tell me what a "poom" is? Is it a color?

For our dojang I see no BB's under the age of 18 (at least that is what it seems like).

 

[mango.man]

I had and still have no martial arts experience.

Poom is a Jr Black Belt. Often signified with a belt that is half black and half red.

 

[Fing Fang Foom]

Thank You

I have seen those red and black belts on some of the older people at the dojang, just not on any youths yet.

Suprised more people have not responded or chimed in with their thoughts on this?

 

[mango.man]

Probably because the topic has been hashed and rehashed a billion times on this and many other forums

 

[Paul B]

Well since I have yet to get into this particular brand-o-hash Ill give it a go.

Too young is not potty trained.

After that whatever age they can lift their feet up to step on the mat. BB are almost literally a dime a dozen nowadays so if they put the work in and know the material does it really matter?

To quote some cool old karate/kung fu/*insert your art here*/ guy.. "There are two kinds of black belts,good ones and bad ones."

 

[Tez3]

Thank You

I have seen those red and black belts on some of the older people at the dojang, just not on any youths yet.

Suprised more people have not responded or chimed in with their thoughts on this?

You won't get many responses, as mango.man said the subject has been done to death. People with no martial arts experience tend to have one view, those of us with many years experience have another.
The subject of McDojos comes up as invariably they are the ones who promote children to blackbelts, have frequent 'gradings', extra sparring classes, 'blackbelt clubs' and take children at a young age.
The reputable places, if they take children, won't take them until about seven years old. If they take them younger it's usually in a special class ie 'Little Dragons, Ninjas' etc. There should be a minumum age for black belt, again most reputable places consider 18 the youngest for a full belt, they may have junior BB from about 15. Many places and instructors won't take children at all, understandable when you know what martial arts is, I take children from sixish, for reasons known to posters here.

I suggest researching things like McDojos, what black belts actually stand for, what they have to be able to do and understand, Look into the art of TKD see what it actually is and what they should be able to do. You'll find much of that on here and you'll find a wealth of experienced instructors here but you won't find them responding to a thread with a title such as this, I only did because I had responded to another of yours. I still won't say what I think about two and a half year old in martial arts but if she can do a 30 man kumite at 3 against adults I'll be impressed and take my words back. The cons far outweigh the pros of chidlren starting training so young whatever the initial 'gains' may be. Physical damage to ligaments and tendons may only be one of the downsides. I could write you a thesis or even a book on the disadvantages of such early training but as I'm not responsible for or need to make loads of money from such kids I'm not adding any more.

 

[Fing Fang Foom]

Thanks Tez for your response.

I truely love the passion you have in your opinion
I will respond with a new comers perspective later, right now I am still aching over Argentina's drubbing by the German squad (arrgghhhhh)

 

[Tez3]

Thanks Tez for your response.

I truely love the passion you have in your opinion
I will respond with a new comers perspective later, right now I am still aching over Argentina's drubbing by the German squad (arrgghhhhh)

LOL, being ex Forces trust me I'm not!! Even though it's Germany..... they didn't knock England out, our lads managed that by themselves, playing so badly and as if they didn't care about it.

I care very much about kids welfare and I get angry at bad martial arts places that rip people off who don't know any different. All the children I teach are children of serving Army people, at the moment our Brigade is in Afghan taking heavy casualties. Our adult students are mostly service too, many of them are also in Afghan.
Martial arts to me is such a deep subject that it makes it unsuitable for toddlers who should learn discipline from their parents not an outside agency, they shouldn't come to us until they have learnt to listen, it's not our job to teach manners, discpline or how to behave generally. We teach people to fight and defend themselves. The violence involved shouldn't be underestimated.

 

[terryl965]

I believe once they came from the wound they are ready just ask any mother that does a martial art.....

 

[Fing Fang Foom]

You won't get many responses, as mango.man said the subject has been done to death.
Sorry for reposting an old hashed out subject, part of being a 'noob' I suppose :lol:

People with no martial arts experience tend to have one view, those of us with many years experience have another.
This is the case in most sports, activities, life. I have seen in my life people that start soccer young for example, and there are even programs that develop young studs (like Ajax over on your side of the pond), and there are parents over here (specially here in very liberal Washington state) that frown upon kids being in sports (competitive) at that early of an age and act like its a crime. I think that people that start off young at a sport/or/MA will advocate it, while those who did not... will not.

The subject of McDojos this is one of the funniest phrases I have read on this site Love it!
comes up as invariably they are the ones who promote children to blackbelts, have frequent 'gradings', extra sparring classes, 'blackbelt clubs' and take children at a young age.
I am starting to think we are in a "McDojo" they do have a "blkbelt club" LOL

The reputable places, if they take children, won't take them until about seven years old. If they take them younger it's usually in a special class ie 'Little Dragons, Ninjas' etc.
mmmmm Maybe were not, it is a special class just for lil dragons, etc

There should be a minumum age for black belt
totally agree

, again most reputable places consider 18 the youngest for a full belt, they may have junior BB from about 15. Many places and instructors won't take children at all, understandable when you know what martial arts is, I take children from sixish, for reasons known to posters here.
Very nice of you to help train your troops kids

I suggest researching things like McDojos, what black belts actually stand for, what they have to be able to do and understand, Look into the art of TKD see what it actually is and what they should be able to do. You'll find much of that on here and you'll find a wealth of experienced instructors here but you won't find them responding to a thread with a title such as this, I only did because I had responded to another of yours.
I have started my research and will continue. There is so much info out there now on the internet it will take me a Long long time to learn a fraction of what there is to know


I still won't say what I think about two and a half year old in martial arts but if she can do a 30 man kumite at 3 against adults I'll be impressed and take my words back.
This statement made me LOL. I signed up Lil' Tiger for a 20 man kumite, but will now have to look for a larger showing so she can earn more respect
Actually, we have our DD in the TKD class more for fun right now. If she ever gets to the age and wishes to compete in any tournament, etc; that will be strictly Up to Her not us. I truely believe that TKD, Like Any sport or activity is for you to take from it what you wish. Everyone's goals may be different. Some may be looking at it as a way to learn to fight/defend one's self. Some may do it to make friends, some may do it to keep there fat **** off the couch LOL. To each his own I say, and if people what to learn MA to be a world class **** whooper then that is OK with me... but then again, if they wish to learn MAs just to have fun, that is OK with me too.

The cons far outweigh the pros of chidlren starting training so young whatever the initial 'gains' may be. Physical damage to ligaments and tendons may only be one of the downsides.
This is a good point that comes up in many sports/physical activities. I for one believe proper technique is key to avoiding many injuries. But, then again many injuries cannot be avoided in a physical activity.

I could write you a thesis or even a book on the disadvantages of such early training but as I'm not responsible for or need to make loads of money from such kids I'm not adding any more.
On the flip side I am sure someone could write a book on the opposite opinion don't you agree?


LOL, being ex Forces trust me I'm not!! Even though it's Germany..... they didn't knock England out, our lads managed that by themselves, playing so badly and as if they didn't care about it.
I am Current military. Serving in the military here since signing up in 1982 and visiting such wonderful places as Grenada at 17 yrs old. Of course Panama, Africa, Iraq, and Kuwait were all to follow
Speaking of world cup, I don't feel the Americans played well at all this go round. After that 'gimme' goal against the 3 lions, we were playing on borrowed time.

I care very much about kids welfare and I get angry at bad martial arts places that rip people off who don't know any different.
That is the problem, at least where I live. How do you know which one's are Not ripping you off? There are so many to choose from and everyone will have their own opinion on each place as far as being a "good or bad place".
Again, I think it comes back to what you are looking for.

All the children I teach are children of serving Army people, at the moment our Brigade is in Afghan taking heavy casualties. Our adult students are mostly service too, many of them are also in Afghan.
Again, thanks for what you do


Martial arts to me is such a deep subject that it makes it unsuitable for toddlers who should learn discipline from their parents not an outside agency, they shouldn't come to us until they have learnt to listen, it's not our job to teach manners, discpline or how to behave generally.
100% Could not agree More with you! It is true that all manner of life lessons should start in the home. That is not to say though that you don't want your kids picking up additional discipline at school, or by their sports coach. In the military I teach young men and woman all the time that are very mature and disciplined young adults... that doesn't mean I cannot instill even More discipline in them :whip1:


We teach people to fight and defend themselves. The violence involved shouldn't be underestimated.
Lastly, the words 'fight and defend' define what you teach and what your students are looking for. I suggest that there are some people not looking for fighting skills, but still can enjoy the other benefits of MA's

One last point. I have truely enjoyed your open and honest opinions. You sound like a great guy

 

[MJS]

Tez raised an interesting point about the age of kids participating in Martial Arts... It is true that most kids in this country at least do not travel to northern china and sit outside the shaolin temple and wait to be accepted as a pupil... but is there an age that is "too" young?

How about earning a Black Belt? Is there an age that is "too" young to earn one? (I have actually heard there are some MA's that have a minimum age limit for BBs).

Would Love to hear Everyone's opinion on these two subjects.
Or let us know when you started MA's for that matter

I'm not a TKD guy, but I'll chime in anyways. IMHO, I dont think that anyone under the age of 16, should receive a black belt. Now, I know some people will mention the 'wonder kids' who are so smart and talented and pick things up so quick...blah, blah, blah, but from what I've seen during my years of teaching, those people are few and far between. I'd rather have someone wait until they're old enough to really understand the meaning of a BB. What to do with those kids in the meantime? Well, let me hold off on that for a moment and talk about when kids should start.

Personally, I'd rather not see anyone start until they're at least 10 or 12yrs old. Again, while some kids will be naturals, many do not have the skill or attention span to learn much of anything, when they're 4 or 5 or 6. Many times it turns into a babysitting class rather than a martial arts class.

Now to answer the other question...if they are started at 4 or 5, then I'd rather see the use of the Jr. BB, rather than seeing a 10yr old 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree BB, which is laughable IMO. In many cases, kids learn a condense version of the material, from the adults, so by doing the JR BB, it gives them time to a) learn the rest of the material and b) mature and reach the required age for a full BB.

 

[jks9199]

I'm not going down the "how young is too young for a black belt" path... It's full of brambles and briars and potholes... and no pleasant scenery.

But how young is to young to train? That's a different question. Based on my own experiences, I won't take a kid below about 10 or 11 again. (OK, my own kid may be a different question, but he won't know what the games we play are about...) For the style I teach, in the manner I teach it, few kids that young have the discipline, attention span, maturity, as well as cognitive, emotional, and physical development to really succeed. The "official" answer is 7 years old in my style... but my experience says it's a rare 7 year old who can train effectively and without being a disruption to everyone else.

As to the Mcdojo... Black belt clubs and the like are indicators, not guarantees. They're business practices and don't mean that the school isn't good. Nor are the Mcdojos automatically bad; they can be a decent start for some people. Trust your own parental instincts about the school and it's members. If you aren't happy or comfortable, seek another.

 

[igillman]

I think we are getting age and maturity mixed up. Imagine someone who is 17 years old who passes all of the requirements for black belt except that they need to be 18 years old. What if they pass the requirements on the day before their 18th birthday? At 11:55pm on that night they are in the dojang with a red/black belt (or whatever they would wear prior to black). On the stroke of midnight they take off their belt and replace it with a black belt. What "magic" happened on the stroke of midnight to enable them to wear a black belt? What change did they go through, mentally or physically to enable them to be a black belt? It was not that they showed they could be one, that was done the day before. It was not that the dojang had no black belts in stock. It was simply the passing of a small amount of time.

I do not think the problem is the age of someone with a black belt, I think the problem is the quality of someone with a black belt. As long as we have the situation where anybody can certify their own black belts or, in the case of the KKW, anybody 4th dan or above then we are going to have this problem. What makes someone who is a 4th dan (or any dan for that matter) capable of teaching and certifying others? As far as I know there is no teaching requirement to be a black belt. Yes some places make people teach x number of hours first but their teaching is not graded in any way.

So now you get someone who is able to certify black belts but they are not a good teacher. They may be excellent at whatever requirements were used for their black belt test but they are no judge of others. When the general public equates number of black belts with a good school there is a lot of pressure to aquire black belts and so there is pressure to pass sub-standard students to fill up the ranks and the cycle repeats itself.

It's about odds and odds are that there are almost no 5 year olds who should be able to pass the requirements for black belt. The odds improve for 10 year olds and get better for 15 year olds. Of course, it depends upon your requirements for black belt which now take us back to the original concept of maturity.

 

[Tez3]

Oooh, let me clear one thing up lol, I'm not in the least a great guy, fantastic lady maybe but no guy! It's the name it's misleading. I'm the only female pro rules MMA ref outside America (boast!)
Probably not tactful to mention you were stationed in Grenada to a Brit as it's part of the Commonwelath and was invaded by Americans LOL!

People joining martial arts just to have fun and to make friends aren't the best students I'm afraid. Having fun and making friends is a side effect of learning a martial art, it really shouldn't be the reason you do it. The training is or should be physically demanding, bruising and hard. One must learn to fight if one is to be a martial artist whether you compete or not, one must be able to defend oneself and to spar. I dislike the idea of martial arts being thought of as merely a 'fun' activity for kids to play at nor can I imagine why people would think martial arts is NOT about fighting. It's what the martial bit means, it's not dancing or cheerleading. I don't disapprove of children starting young in sports but not martial arts, for many like myself it's not a sport and it's simply not an activity suitable for very young children. I know many have made it so like the Olympic TKD ( but don't go there, you'll have people arguing all over again about it! for many of us it's Riverdance for others it's the be all and end all, so not a good subject for a thread lol)

Not particularly nice of me to teach service kids , I'm still in a uniform and live and work on the Garrison. These are the children of colleagues and friends. We are a fighting club, the children learn martial arts in as much depth as they can manage, they spar,do SD, weapons, learn Bunkai and can fight standing or on the ground. The adults do MMAand SD, we also promote MMA fight nights.

I'm sure there's plenty who would disagree with me about how young children should start but you'll find that no one disagrees with me that children as young as three aren't martial artists or that children of five, six etc can't be even reasonable blackbelts. Everyone will agree that children as young as this simply aren't doing martial arts, they may disagree with whether it's simply childcare or whether they are learning basics but we will all agree it's not martial arts as older people are doing and shouldn't be seen as such.

For research I recommend this, save you trawling through the internet.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_home.asp

There's two free ebooks and a magazine to download as well as many good articles by Iain and other extremely knowledgable people. Iain is a leading if not THE leading expert of applied karate, I've trained with him and am doing so in a couple weeks ( can't wait!) what he teaches is relevant to karate, TKD, TSD etc. perhaps from this you will see what many of us consider martial arts to be and why toddlers are too young to train.

I strongly recommend you read this about TKD, Stuart posts on MT as well and is a highly respected martial artist.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Stuart_Anslow_1.asp

These three articles are about training for children
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Jamie_Clubb_4.asp
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Jamie_Clubb_5.asp
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Jamie_Clubb_6.asp


this on starting martial arts
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Lawrence_Kane_5.asp


All the authors give contact details so you can ask more questions etc. Lawrence Kane is American, the others British ( in case you want to phone!)


I hope that maybe you can start to see why I and others like me don't regard martial arts as a sport as such in the way that soccer, athletics etc are. As Lawrence Kane says, in martial arts your instructors can kill you, it's that serious! ( they'd only do that if your kids are really really annoying though)

Right I'm off to bed now, been on nights again and it's time for beauty sleep.....
Oi, I heard that remark and that's cheeky!!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

For me, if someone can meet the criteria required for a black belt they can get one. This is provided that the criteria required is of a high standard and that these standards are not 'dumbed down' to help a kid get a black belt. I dont care if they are 5 years old, if they can do everything to a black belt standard then they can have one. In saying this, I dont believe that any 5 year old is capable of meeting black belt standard, and from what Ive seen personally very, very few kids under 16 have what it takes both physically and mentally to be a black belt. I agree with Tez that martial arts are about 'fighting' but I also believe there is much more to it than this. If its 100% about fighting and nothing more I dont think many people would do MA. For me personally, I havent been in a fight in 20 years, I dont work in an occupation where I need to defend myself, I dont walk the streets late at night and I am almost never in a position where I would need to defend myself, so for me to invest time and money into something soley just to learn to fight would not really be necessary. I gain many things from training in MA and as a bi-product of that I have learnt to defend myself if necessary, but its not the only reason I do it and Im sure its not the only reason parents put their kids in MA.

 

[Steven Craig]

MAs is fantastic for children's development. It enhances co-ordination, it focuses on developing self esteem and discipline. I have had my son doing TKD with me for the past three years and not only has it helped him in the above areas the element of sparring has helped him develop his thought processes through applying techniques in a variety of ways to suit certain situations, rather than just performing a rote learned routine. I think it would be somewhat stifling to him if he were to have to stop in his growth in the art because he has reached a certain age. Yes, I agree there is a too young, I started him at five and then restarted him a year later as he did not have the maturity to focus initially enough to gain through the art. I am in agreement with mango man that the poom ranks are a good way to help a student to develop yet have them separated from what is considered a BB. However, the club I train in is independent and don’t use poom ranks. They do allow students to grade for BB’s under the age of fifteen and if my child reaches the rank then I will be proud of his achievement. More importantly I will be proud if he continues in the art beyond this achievement and for that to happen there needs to be goals for him to achieve so he does not stagnate and get bored. Some of the most impressive BB’s in my club were children BB’s who have gone on to develop in the art over many years.

 

[MJS]

I think we are getting age and maturity mixed up. Imagine someone who is 17 years old who passes all of the requirements for black belt except that they need to be 18 years old. What if they pass the requirements on the day before their 18th birthday? At 11:55pm on that night they are in the dojang with a red/black belt (or whatever they would wear prior to black). On the stroke of midnight they take off their belt and replace it with a black belt. What "magic" happened on the stroke of midnight to enable them to wear a black belt? What change did they go through, mentally or physically to enable them to be a black belt? It was not that they showed they could be one, that was done the day before. It was not that the dojang had no black belts in stock. It was simply the passing of a small amount of time.

I do not think the problem is the age of someone with a black belt, I think the problem is the quality of someone with a black belt. As long as we have the situation where anybody can certify their own black belts or, in the case of the KKW, anybody 4th dan or above then we are going to have this problem. What makes someone who is a 4th dan (or any dan for that matter) capable of teaching and certifying others? As far as I know there is no teaching requirement to be a black belt. Yes some places make people teach x number of hours first but their teaching is not graded in any way.

So now you get someone who is able to certify black belts but they are not a good teacher. They may be excellent at whatever requirements were used for their black belt test but they are no judge of others. When the general public equates number of black belts with a good school there is a lot of pressure to aquire black belts and so there is pressure to pass sub-standard students to fill up the ranks and the cycle repeats itself.

It's about odds and odds are that there are almost no 5 year olds who should be able to pass the requirements for black belt. The odds improve for 10 year olds and get better for 15 year olds. Of course, it depends upon your requirements for black belt which now take us back to the original concept of maturity.

Actually, IMO, I do think the problem is age. Many that I have talked to, as well as many on here, think its a joke to see a 10yr old kid with a BB, let alone a 2nd or 3rd. The value of the BB has gone down IMO. Instead of it meaning hard work, blood, sweat and tears, its now more along the lines of "lets see how many BBs we can get in our BB school!" Thats what makes it a joke.

 

[jthomas1600]

I think some of the issue is the instructor. Some people have a gift to bring out the best in children and others do not. It takes a unique skill set to teach young children. Our instructor seems to have this gift. He also seems to genuinely love kids and enjoy being around them. My kids are a little older so I don't know all the details/requirements for young children, but I think I see kids as young as 5 in our tinny tiger club. I also don't see any 9 or 10 year olds running around with black belts so I know there is a mechanism in place to graduate the tinny tigers to the next level and keep them progressing with out awarding a black belt very young child.