When did Yip Man change the forms?

[Marnetmar]

It's known that Yip Man's Wing Chun forms in Foshan were more or less similar to those of Yiu Choi/YKS, and that he presumably simplified the forms after coming to Hong Kong.

So when did he change the forms? Did the change occur in his later Foshan years shortly before coming to Hong Kong? Did he simplify the forms on the fly when he first started teaching Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu? Is the Leung Bik story real after all, and the Hong Kong forms are the "Leung Bik" version?

Would like to hear your thoughts and speculations.

 

[APL76]

Pure speculation, but my guess is Yip Man modified his forms once he got to Hong Kong, and was faced with the prospect of having to teach Wing Chun in order to survive.

 

[jlq]

It's known that Yip Man's Wing Chun forms in Foshan were more or less similar to those of Yiu Choi/YKS, and that he presumably simplified the forms after coming to Hong Kong.

So when did he change the forms? Did the change occur in his later Foshan years shortly before coming to Hong Kong? Did he simplify the forms on the fly when he first started teaching Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu? Is the Leung Bik story real after all, and the Hong Kong forms are the "Leung Bik" version?

Would like to hear your thoughts and speculations.

1. It is incorrect that Yip Man's forms in Fatsaan were more or less similar to those of Yiu Choi and YKS - the forms he taught then are in fact almost the same as what was passed on in HK - the biggest difference is that in Fatsaan they kept the Sap Zhi Sau (Character 10 Hand) after the Yat Zhi Chung Choi. Other than than basically just one small, inconsequential different. People are just not used to the particular flavour of the Fatsaan students, and think it is something rather different. If you study it in detail, though, you will realize the truth of what I just wrote. If we look at the forms of YK, YC and YKS, we can consider YM man YKS on opposite ends of the spectrum and YC's sets in the middle. This is not strange, given that YC's source of learning was essentially the teachers of YKS and YM...

2. Yip Man stopped teaching his 7 students on Wing Ngon Rd. in 1944 and continued to teach Gwok Fu privately in Zaau Biu Cun (a village) until ca. 1946 (about 1,5 years). After that Yip Man didn't teach students in Fatsaan, so there would have been absolutely no reason for him to change anything.

3. Leung Bik was a real person, but whether or not it is possible for him to have taught Yip Man anything is questionable. Given what I wrote in 1. (the HK and Fatsaan forms are pretty much the same) there is no reason to speculate whether or not the HK forms were from Leung Bik.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

There are a number of different Wing Chun schools out there and the following book is full of great information:

 

[hunschuld]

It's known that Yip Man's Wing Chun forms in Foshan were more or less similar to those of Yiu Choi/YKS, and that he presumably simplified the forms after coming to Hong Kong.

So when did he change the forms? Did the change occur in his later Foshan years shortly before coming to Hong Kong? Did he simplify the forms on the fly when he first started teaching Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu? Is the Leung Bik story real after all, and the Hong Kong forms are the "Leung Bik" version?

Would like to hear your thoughts and speculations.

Several factors go into the forms changing. First depending on point of view changes are big or small. At a dinner in 94/95 when asked Yip Chun said his father told him that Leung Jan had worked on Simplifying wing chun and he, Yip man, tried to do the same thing over the years. As APL76 says. Yip had to teach and his school grew because he was able to turn out so many effective fighters in a short time. Simplifying things was a away to teach large numbers.Several of Yip Mans students have said that YM felt you had to be educated to really learn and understand wing chun. This also weighed in his teaching.. Few really learned form YM ,by the mid 50's most learned from senior students at the school. At least the first and second forms. Yip did not argue with students and he also modified things for individual students if they were having issues. Tan not working for you then do it this other way . According to Yip Ching the reason his knife form and Yip Chuns form are different is that Yip Chun was having some issues getting some of it so YM taught him alternatives.. Yip Ching changed a technique in Chum Kui . When he asked his father about the change YM asked do you have a good reason for making the change YC said yes and YM said Ok. According to Ho kam Ming once Ym was showing him something and HKM said he already knew it. YM said you already know it? OK. Then did not teach him anything new for a year and a half. Then we have stories of YM spending time with an older wing chun person in HK and visiting this person through the 50s and early 60s until his death. According tosome students he incorporated this wing chun into what he had been doing in Foshon. This story start with Leung Sheung,Lok Yui and Jui Wan and ends with Moy Yat
As you can see many variables went into YM Hong Kong wing chun. So many versions of right and wrong.

Personal story. On a Friday I was training with Tsui shun Ting and Saturday I was training with HKM. I did a tan sau the way TST showed me and HKM stops and says wrong you do Tan sau this way not that way. Many in Foshan would do it differently and say the others were wrong. Chao NG Kwai taught me why the different interpretations of what should be just a simple tan sau. All could be a tan sau depending where on the usage scale you are.