ZDW was making assertion about the need of having great penetration.
Once again you are incorrect my friend. Re-read my posts. I continually have said penetration to vital organs. That is not
great penetration that is
adequate penatration. Which in LEO is at least 12 inches. The lawfull shooter needs penetration to reach vital organs even through limbs and common barriers. Why someone cannot understand this principle is beyond me honestly. This is for LEO as well as civilians.
Everybody in the firearm field knows that the paramount problem is over penetration and lack of EXPANSION. The issue is kinetic energy transfer
Wrong again my friend. The only people talking about energy transfer are people like Marshall & Sanow whose OSS study has been so shot full of holes [no pun intended] that I almost feel sorry for them. Guns & Ammo and like gun rags that create
controversy where none actually exists to sell their magazine and a few others who have been shown to have ties to ammo companies. Professional organizations KNOW that 'energy transfer' out of a handgun is a catch-phrase for those that are gullible, no offense but it's true. They have to have the latest gimmick ammo and the highest velocity. Doesn't mean zip at hand gun power levels and certainly CAN'T knock a man off his feet. I have seen 10 lbs watermelons with a vest in front being shot with a 12 gauge with 00 buck at a distance of 10 feet. The melon was routinely NOT knocked over. Much less a full grown man.
Even Joe Zambone knew this and demonstrated it in his 93 video touting his Magsafe ammo. I KNEW Joe Z [rip] and talked to him often. An though he touted energy transfer he knew it could not knock a man down. His Magsafe ammo has more energy transfer then just about ANY conventional ammo and I have it on video taking TWO shots from a .40 agent load [maxxed out hot load] to knock a polaroid camera off the work bench!
The 135g/1300 fps combo can be found in the Pro-Load tactical Triton HiVel lines.
This has the exact sectional density of a 115 9mm. It is 1mm larger and 50 fps SLOWER than say a Cor-bon 115+P and will penetrate to roughly 9-10 inches routinely in geletin as well as people. This is NOT enough for most situations. It would do well in a best case senerio where there is an unobstructed frontal torso shot on an average sized man. Do you want to depend on this? I do not.
I use a 124+P Gold dot 9mm in my Glock 19 and a 200 +P Gold dot in my .45. They have the same sectional density and depth of penetration. They perform ideally out of my barrel lengths and have enough penatration as well as expansion. They both have similar terminal ballistics, both function well and are accurate. They are not magic...but no round is.
I KNOW both these rounds in both these calibers do well in actual shootings because it is our agency rounds. The 9mm has done superbly. NO angency in our area of the state uses 115/135/185 weight rounds in 9/.40/.45 because they DO NOT have adequate penetration, period.
I didn't bash him other than pointing out what others have questioned his credibility for.
Nobody on this board that 'bashed' me ever actually checked out my credentials first hand. They made assumptions, inuendos and issued tirade unfoundedly. Only one individual did check me out...and is now MY STUDENT
I have offered time and again contacts to verify who I am and what I know. I have provided resources to individuals and sites that routinely deal with LEO/Gov in this area that verify EVERYTHING I have stated here.
NO offense but you bring things up like 'energy transfer', 'OSS', 'Straousburg tests', 'Temporary cavitation', 'Stopping/knockdown power' and you will be laughed to scorn by these people who ARE experts in this field. People whom the FBI, LEO, MIlitary consult.
You relegate Glocktalk.com to an 'anonyomous site'. Funny but again incorrect. It has over 20,000 members worldwide with some of the most famous people in this field even and including Evan Marshall. People like Shawn Dodson and members of the IWBA etc. LEO's and military from all over the world post there. I have been there almost from it's inception and am routinely called on for my input. Not because I'm special or great...but because I offer sound, combat proven advise.
I encourage EVERYONE to look at these resourses and the data they contain. I will point out at every chance fallacies such as energy transfer and OSS and 'goat tests'
People there are three main basics;
Function
Penetration
Accuracy under stress
Everything else is a distant fourth!
A .45 is fine...I have one. But NOT because it will 'knock' you down...that is simply silly. I have one because I carry two LEO firearms Instructor certs and our agency uses both 9mm and .45 [limited to perhaps 5% of active officers]. This is a 2500 member department. I feel just as well off with my 9mm and so should everyone else here with what they have be it a 9mm, .380, .25, .45 etc.
Chose your equipment wisely and DON'T rely on gun rags who have a product to sell.
Stay safe.
