Whats your favourite weapon?

[Johnathan Napalm]

lol That is .50 to you. Would a ported barrel help? The Barrett M82A1 does not kick any worse than the 12 gauge, due to its muzzle brake. A ported barrel would reduce muzzle flip.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
....Hmmm, I'm not sure where you learned math but 410 is a bigger number than 369. You can go into momentum and the like but that is generally used for slide energy and has nothing to do with how hard a bullet 'hits' someone....

More proof of your theoretical BS. You take mass*velocity, but you are TOTALLY ignorant of the energy transfer factor. You can have all the energy , but the bullet went straight through and the result?

Here is a hint for you. Why was the Black Talon caused such a furor? Remember the Black Talon? No one survives been shot by one. It shreds everything thing. When you open up the wound, everything inside is bleeding. In the words of a surgeon,"No one survives this."

When you collide one object with another, how the energy is dumped into the other one, is the major factor. Simple physics. You have to be insane to ignore that.

As to Hackworth, I AGAIN, provided resourses into his 'account' of the Berreta that showed his errors. Your choosing to ignore those sources does not negate their validity.

What sources, other than yourself spreading lies? Oh EXCUSE the heck out of me. The Glock Talk forum where your "Guns&Ammo" crowd hangs out? LMAO! Yeah, great sources of factual info there! Every Dick and Harry are know-it-all and can post trash there. So, if that forum is your sources of information, e'nuf said already, dude!

Hackworth is highly respected by the vets and active service members. His only agenda is to save our service men and women's lives. It is pretty low for you to smear his integrity without one once of proof! Outrageous! You can insult me. I am nobody. Spreading lies about Col Hackworth is very low. I invite readers to visit Col. Hackworth's site to check the truth out for themselves. www.hackworth.com

Bullets DO NOT knock people down, period, end of story. Maybe in your world they do but not in the real world. If bullets DO knock people down then answer this question for all of us here reading this...

Read the articles I posted previously. Actually, you know, the kind of ammo that shoot right through you, would probably produce the result you mentioned. THAT IS THE RESULT OF LACK OF ENERGY TRANSFER! DUH!

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
lol That is .50 to you. Would a ported barrel help? The Barrett M82A1 does not kick any worse than the 12 gauge, due to its muzzle brake. A ported barrel would reduce muzzle flip.

Um... I'm talking about a Desert Eagle. A hunting weapon, not a self-defense weapon.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

There are ported barrels for pistols too. The Glock C (Compensated) series is one example. I am not sure about the availability of any for the DE.

 

[MartialArtist]

Sorry, I misunderstood your statement.

The .440 corbon had a sharper kick than the .50 AE, because it's a .50 loaded into a .44 mag casing. Kinda like how the .40 S&W has somewhat of a sharper kick than the .45 ACP.

 

[A.R.K.]

JN

If you want to continue believing in 'energy transfer' then by all means do so. But I will take you to task for spreading your nonsense to others. It is all and only about function, penetration and accuracy under stress.

Answer my question.....

What is your real world experience?

If a .45 will knock you down as you have claimed numerous times here, why oh why didn't 6 direct COM rifle hits even faze the VC. Remember, rifle rounds have vastly more energy than handgun rounds. So If a .45 will knock someone down....surely a rifle will as well. Please explain to all of us here why a rifle and even a shotgun will not. I have supplied examples of both that are easily verifiable.....

Still waiting

I'm sorry you don't understand the math behind energy transfer/kinetic energy etc. They are well documented. And to everyone else here who is not blinded by Guns n Ammo I would suggest the International Wound Ballistics Association and Firearmstactical with Shawn Dodson. Some of my 'buddies' from Glock talk.

I am so suprised you haven't drawn out the M & S OSS study or the LOL Straousburg tests yet. Face it partner, YOU are the armchair commando and are just pissed off that someone is challenging your nonsense. And the reason I'm slamming you so hard is that your 80's dribble could very well get someone here killed. Turn off the TV and start reading some PROFESSIONAL journal that are involved with something the rest of us like to call real life.

BTW, there are vastly more people who ARE experts that completely disagree with Hackworth's articles on the 9mm. I have supplied numerous sources for the reader's here to check out. You have several questions to answer my friend.

I've seen the white elephant my friend. The fact that you still believe a handgun bullet will knock you down clearly shows that you don't have a grasp of reality in this area. I am awaiting your answers to my many questions.....

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
...If you want to continue believing in 'energy transfer' then by all means do so. But I will take you to task for spreading your nonsense to others. It is all and only about function, penetration and accuracy under stress.

Answer my question.....

What is your real world experience?
If a .45 will knock you down as you have claimed numerous times here, why oh why didn't 6 direct COM rifle hits even faze the VC. Remember, rifle rounds have vastly more energy than handgun rounds. So If a .45 will knock someone down....surely a rifle will as well. Please explain to all of us here why a rifle and even a shotgun will not. I have supplied examples of both that are easily verifiable.....

Still waiting
[\quote]
Do you need reading glasses? I have posted links and then reposted the actual articles about 45 knocking you dead on your ***! WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM? GO read those battlefield reports, for crying out loud. Do you want me to read them to you?

Take me to task? LMAO Oh Pleeeze! Those articles about battlefield feedback from soldiers who fought with 9mm and 45, have taken YOU to task already. lol

LMAO, Why don't you try to twist those field reports into something else. Nice try in pretending they are Hackworth's agenda.

I'm sorry you don't understand the math behind energy transfer/kinetic energy etc. They are well documented. And to everyone else here who is not blinded by Guns n Ammo I would suggest the International Wound Ballistics Association and Firearmstactical with Shawn Dodson. Some of my 'buddies' from Glock talk.

This is going places fast.

Again, real world result and basic science regarding impact kinetic energy transfer have proven beyond any shred of doubt that the more energy transferred to the target, the greater the degree of damage done to the tissue of the target. Simple science, Watson.

It is a proven fact that enrgy transfer delivers the knock down power. If your bogus claim holds any water, all hunting ammo will have steelcore and ammor piecing capability. On the contrary, you want a "MUSHROOMING" ammo. What is that, huh? The mushrooming effect shreds larger amount of tissue. In physics, this is called energy transfer.

If you have a clean wound, b/c the bullet over penetrated and sailed down the street, all the energy was carry down the street in that flying bullet. Lack of energy transfer, my friend. This is beyond dispute.

OK, I am sick of educating you on something you ought to have known.

Quit your Gun mag insult. 1, I don't even read those, hence your baseless assumption is irrelevant. 2. It is getting old. Your assumption of facts is beyond imagination.

I am so suprised you haven't drawn out the M & S OSS study or the LOL Straousburg tests yet. Face it partner, YOU are the armchair commando and are just pissed off that someone is challenging your nonsense. And the reason I'm slamming you so hard is that your 80's dribble could very well get someone here killed. Turn off the TV and start reading some PROFESSIONAL journal that are involved with something the rest of us like to call real life.

On the contrary, my reputation is not at stake here. Yours however, have been questioned on various threads and topics. It is your own fault that you made lots of claims to credit and fame that you can't back it up. Please do not project your dilemma onto me. I don't have your problem.

Please do not try to transplant your own sources of information onto me.

BTW, there are vastly more people who ARE experts that completely disagree with Hackworth's articles on the 9mm. I have supplied numerous sources for the reader's here to check out. You have several questions to answer my friend.

You are obviously, either by ignorance, willful negigence or vested interest, purposefully mislead readers by falsely presenting the criticism on the 9mm, as Hackworth's own opinion. On the contrary, any one who read the article, can see crystal clear that the views expressed reflect the soldiers who actually used 9mm and 45 in battle. Which brings to another point. Battlefield feedback outweight your gelatin balistics test, my friend. LMAO. Who do people want to believe? The soldiers who fight for their lives or the researchers?

I've seen the white elephant my friend. The fact that you still believe a handgun bullet will knock you down clearly shows that you don't have a grasp of reality in this area. I am awaiting your answers to my many questions.....
[/QUOTE]

How many times must I educate you on the effect of energy transfer?

If for some god forsaken reason, you have your own freakish definition for energy transfer, I suggest you get the proper scientific definition. For some reason, I am running in circle here.

I am sorry if your reputation or credibility is at stake. You did it to yourself.

Go learn some facts about kinetic energy and energy transfer.

What can get people killed is you posting bogus claims about the effectiveness of ammo that flies in the face of real battlefield (and even hunting!! for crying out loud!) result.

You can have deep penetration ammo that is 100% lethal. BUT, if the ammo does NOT cause an instantly incapitating wound, you will end up DEAD by the hands of your target, before he expires from you deep-penetrating shot. What causes incapitating wound is massive tissue destruction, and that come from maximum energy transfer. That is what the hollow point, prefrag, and the tumbling effect of AR ammo designs are for. To dump the maximum amount of the kinetic energy of the bullet onto the target and shred as much tissue to create as big a wound channel as possible.

OK. I have explained enough and repeat enough about this simple fact. Whatever negative impact on your credibility or reputation, is not any of our concern. Readers can read through the posts here, follow the links, read those battlefield reports , and decide for themselves. You have a vested interest in keep calling a tail a leg. I have no agenda nor vested interest. What people believe or don't believe, do or don't do, is no concern mine. I post the facts . People can check them out themselves.

 

[MartialArtist]

In physics, a bullet will not knock you down. Unless you can change the laws of physics, you can't knock someone down with a bullet. However, human physiology and anatomy will make you fall down to the ground from a bullet.

 

[A.R.K.]

JN,

I post the facts .

No sir, you post your opinion based on reading gun rags and bogus 'battlefield' reports.

People can check them out themselves

Splendid idea!!! For once we are in complete agreement. Interesting that you don't answer any of the questions I posed to you. Curious as to what you credentials are???

Tell me [and all of us] where we can get these magic bullets that knock people backward...probably through the plate glass window that always happens to be behind them :rofl:

I'd like to pick up a box or two....

For everyone else serious about self defense with a firearm I stongly urge you to check out ALL of JN's wonderful info and then check out the ones I have posted. Come to your own informed decision.

Stay safe.

 

[MartialArtist]

Here is an article, read the .45 for a reason...

http://www.americanhandgunner.com/JF03ftr.html

There is good reason why the US military along with many others, used .45 for their sidearm weapon. Reason? The perfect combination of power, damage, number of rounds, and recoil. .357 magnum works in terms of damage it inflicts but stopping a guy right in his tracks? It suits somebody who needs to hit and run, like expert guerilla troops. A .44 magnum and larger... Too much recoil, not to mention the muzzle flash. 9mm, no way.

The most popular pistols for elite groups and active combat groups from what I remember are in no particular order...

H&K Mark 23, USP series
1911 (all brands)
Sig p226

All in .45 (except the sig which is in .357)

 

[MartialArtist]

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=Reviews&rop=showcontent&id=1

 

[DAC..florida]

I work in law enforcement and dispite what any articles or reports say any round fired from a hand gun will not force someone to fly backwards. Fortunately i have never had to shoot anyone myself but i have seen people who have been shot and seen people shot right in front of me. I have never witnessed but have read some reports of people who have watched to many movies and their brains were programed to fall or fly backwards upon being shot, but scientifically NO ROUND FIRED FROM A HANDGUN CAN THROW YOU OR PUSH YOU BACKWARD. Unless you have seen someone get shot you can believe whatever you hear or read but that my friends is the truth.

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PROVE THIS AT HOME!!!!!!!




Training hard breeds warriors.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I work in law enforcement and dispite what any articles or reports say any round fired from a hand gun will not force someone to fly backwards. Fortunately i have never had to shoot anyone myself but i have seen people who have been shot and seen people shot right in front of me. I have never witnessed but have read some reports of people who have watched to many movies and their brains were programed to fall or fly backwards upon being shot, but scientifically NO ROUND FIRED FROM A HANDGUN CAN THROW YOU OR PUSH YOU BACKWARD. Unless you have seen someone get shot you can believe whatever you hear or read but that my friends is the truth.

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PROVE THIS AT HOME!!!!!!!




Training hard breeds warriors.

Not even rubber bullets knock you back, but the rioters will most likely go to the ground for safety or fall because they just did.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Thanks for the 2 articles/links, MA.

More real life evidence supporting 45 over 9mm. It is another example of real life result superceding theoretical garbage that the general audience fall for.


The following surmarize my previous points (for other readers who may read this thread).

Both the military and LEO experience prefer 45 over the 9. The 9mm is fine. But if your life depends on it, then that shot must count. And a 45 center shot, will do just fine. Proven in real combat. Not some gelatin test *sigh*. With the 9mm, you have to double tab or head shot, if you can pull it off.

No one says the 9mm is non-lethal. But the issue is stooping power. Both the 9 and the 45 are lethal. But the 45 stops the criminal cold! THe one been shot by your 9, may drop dead, or may live long enough to blow your head off. You can roll the dice and take your chance.

To increase the stopping power of the 9, the hollow point, HydraShok, prefrag, etc are invented. All these designs are to increase the energy dump (transfer) from the bullet to the target, with the intent of causing maximum tissue damage, wound channel. The Black Talon was (pulled from market) the ultimate shredder. (ZDW does not understand kinetic energy transfer and wound channel effect. That is his own issue. None of my concern. My posts here are for the readers to be informed of the real facts.)

Still, the 9mm lack of stopping power is neither 100% resolved nor assured. The 45 has no issue with stopping power. "...After reliability and accuracy comes stopping power, and the .45 ACP cartridge pretty much takes care of this by itself...."

I invite readers to read the articles I posted and those posted by MA, as well as ZDW's. Just be aware that ZDW Glocktalk forum is just another internet forum where anonymous posters make bogus claims. While the people mentioned in other articles are known authority.

ZDW wants to mislead people by pretending that the stopping power of the 45 is just my personal view. On the contrary, readers who check out those articles about the experiences of soldiers, special forces, and LEO, can see for themselves that the 45 is a battlefield proven man-stopper. Sadly, ZDW saw fit to mislabel those reports as bogus.

ZDW is having a hard time defnding his credibility and reputation in other threads, due to his numerous claim of fame. Sadly, to him, every thing is a challenge to his credibility and hence forth credential.

The argument started with the stopping power of 45 vs the 9. There are plenty of evidence supporting the 45. None supporting the 9 , except for anonymous posts at the Glocktalk forum. Sadly, ZDW believes that is the most reliable source.

I have expensed more time and effort on this thread. But the information provided will serve the readers well, if they would choose to explore and read further , rather than just take the words of someone who boasts lofty claim of credential that is questionable, with this being the internet and all.

 

[MartialArtist]

My link provided the review of the Beretta. Note it said that it's a good training weapon, and a good civilian self-defense weapon, but it's just not reliable enough (in terms of doing its job) to use in the military. It said that nobody really uses the issue weapon.

Army: Sig P2xx Series
Marines: 1911A1
Navy SEALs: Mark 23

 

[DAC..florida]

Jonathan napalm

I dont know where you get your info from but again i must disagree with you. I have been through law a enforcement academy and many law enforcement seminars, you claim that leo prefer the .45 over the 9mm thats a croc... I have yet to see a law enforcement agency actively using a .45 as thier issued side arms. Most agencies issue a .40 as the primary weapon, the F.B.I usually sets the trend in the current weapons for leo(check it out). There are a few local agencies that still use the 9mm but I cant think of any in this area who use a .45 . The agency that I am employed with gives you the choice between thier issued glock 17 9mm or you could buy your own either .40 or .45 and i cant think of anyone that carries a .45. I also hope you at least looked at ZDW's profile before arguing with him on this subject because I did and like myself he also works in law enfocement.


I only offer the truth from the trenches and the local ,state and federal law enfocment officers whom i have talked with and not the gun makers or salesman who write articles making false claims to persuade the buyers to puchase the more pricy larger cal. weapons.
Please dont think I hate the .45 I just dont care for the recoil and time it takes to fire multiple shots on target.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

ZDW's profile and credibility have been beaten to death. Go check out what others have already questioned about his profile and claims of qualification, rank, credential etc, in other thread.

 

[GaryM]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
Jonathan napalm

I dont know where you get your info from but again i must disagree with you. I have been through law a enforcement academy and many law enforcement seminars, you claim that leo prefer the .45 over the 9mm thats a croc... I have yet to see a law enforcement agency actively using a .45 as thier issued side arms. Most agencies issue a .40 as the primary weapon, the F.B.I usually sets the trend in the current weapons for leo(check it out). There are a few local agencies that still use the 9mm but I cant think of any in this area who use a .45 . The agency that I am employed with gives you the choice between thier issued glock 17 9mm or you could buy your own either .40 or .45 and i cant think of anyone that carries a .45. I also hope you at least looked at ZDW's profile before arguing with him on this subject because I did and like myself he also works in law enfocement.


I only offer the truth from the trenches and the local ,state and federal law enfocment officers whom i have talked with and not the gun makers or salesman who write articles making false claims to persuade the buyers to puchase the more pricy larger cal. weapons.
Please dont think I hate the .45 I just dont care for the recoil and time it takes to fire multiple shots on target.

Could it possibly be that the reason for agencys issuing the 9mm is because beancounters made the decision as to what is the most economical. Why didn't the 'double tap' policy (shoot them twice) come into play until the 9mm became widely used by law enforcement? I have a .45 kimber and a .40 browining highpower and the difference in recoil is negligable. The .40 is 'sharper' but follow up shots are about the same. If you want light recoil, penetration, and lots of rounds in your magazine then maybe you should consider carrying a .22 .

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
Jonathan napalm

I dont know where you get your info from but again i must disagree with you. I have been through law a enforcement academy and many law enforcement seminars, you claim that leo prefer the .45 over the 9mm thats a croc... I have yet to see a law enforcement agency actively using a .45 as thier issued side arms. Most agencies issue a .40 as the primary weapon, the F.B.I usually sets the trend in the current weapons for leo(check it out). There are a few local agencies that still use the 9mm but I cant think of any in this area who use a .45 . The agency that I am employed with gives you the choice between thier issued glock 17 9mm or you could buy your own either .40 or .45 and i cant think of anyone that carries a .45. I also hope you at least looked at ZDW's profile before arguing with him on this subject because I did and like myself he also works in law enfocement.


I only offer the truth from the trenches and the local ,state and federal law enfocment officers whom i have talked with and not the gun makers or salesman who write articles making false claims to persuade the buyers to puchase the more pricy larger cal. weapons.
Please dont think I hate the .45 I just dont care for the recoil and time it takes to fire multiple shots on target.

Law enforcement is DIFFERENT from military.

And law enforcement as in county cops use 9mm, why? Because they have the advantage of having high-mag rounds. In LE, there is no 10-round limit so it would be better to take advantage of the more rounds. Also, most criminals who really can't aim use 9mm because they need 20 bullets for their drive-bys.

You'll see that the people who use guns the most use .45. How many traffic cops use 9mm? Almost every one. Now, what about SWAT? Or FBI? There was a survey and most FBI agents prefer Sigs and Glocks, in 10mm or above. SWAT? Kimber, Para Ordnance, Sig, H&K, some even use Desert Eagles.

 

[MartialArtist]

One of the most economical guns is the 5/7. 20 rounds, high penetration power, but how come barely anyone uses it? The caliber is the real reason. Not only is the 5/7 not widely used, but it's just not powerful enough to have the one-shot kill 99.999% of the time. A 9mm is a peashooter to a prepared criminal (automatic weapons, kevlar vests, etc.) while great for self-defense.