M
muayThaiPerson
Guest
My mouth
- Status
M
MartialArtist
Guest
http://www.sightm1911.com/M1911vsM9.htm
What you're trying to argue ZDW is a proven, reliable .45 that was proven for over a century vs. a caliber (9mm) that's been proven for SMG's and law enforcement, not much else. The Luger used 9mm parabellum, and it was a very good 9mm, but from all the reports... Guess what gun wins, Colt or Luger. Both were well-designed, both were accurate. But...
What you're trying to argue ZDW is a proven, reliable .45 that was proven for over a century vs. a caliber (9mm) that's been proven for SMG's and law enforcement, not much else. The Luger used 9mm parabellum, and it was a very good 9mm, but from all the reports... Guess what gun wins, Colt or Luger. Both were well-designed, both were accurate. But...
A
A.R.K.
Guest
No sir, what I was arguing was first and foremost a handgun is not going to knock you backwards. Secondly that the 9mm, as does the .45 has a fine tract record....for a handgun. Thirdly that items such as energy transfer and stopping power are unrealistic buzz words used in gun rags. And Lastly that M & S and the OSS are questionable and based on faulty assumptions.
I have both the 9mm and the .45 and I feel comfortable with either. I do not feel that the .45 is vastly superior over the 9mm. Same with the other service calibers. I don't consider the OSS study as valid for many reasons, some of which I have already posted.
And once again I state that the priority considerations are Function, Penetration and accuarcy under stress. Take care.
M
MartialArtist
Guest
No, what you're saying was that the 9mm is superior to the 45 in general. One of the things you said was that it was faster, then you said the caliber difference was minimal, and so on.
Faulty assumptions? The IWBA is looked down upon by a lot of places because it lacks real-world results. You want real-world results? You have over a century of information from the primary sources of WWI to the war in Afghanistan. Remember, they had to double tap with a 9mm, and double tapping isn't great. And also, against terrorists, most terrorists now wear vests of some kind. A 9mm is like a Super Soaker against that. Might as well bring an airsoft gun.
There is good reason why most SWAT team members, and NO elite military soldiers carry the 9mm. Even though the Beretta is of pretty good design, it doesn't cut it.
Faulty assumptions? The IWBA is looked down upon by a lot of places because it lacks real-world results. You want real-world results? You have over a century of information from the primary sources of WWI to the war in Afghanistan. Remember, they had to double tap with a 9mm, and double tapping isn't great. And also, against terrorists, most terrorists now wear vests of some kind. A 9mm is like a Super Soaker against that. Might as well bring an airsoft gun.
There is good reason why most SWAT team members, and NO elite military soldiers carry the 9mm. Even though the Beretta is of pretty good design, it doesn't cut it.
Johnathan Napalm
Black Belt
First of all, no need to deny your intend. You have tried repeatedly to embarrass me, but, due to your failure to adhere to the facts, your attempts were futile. It does not bother me when people attack me, as long as they have the guts to own up to it. This is the internet. I don't take things here personally.
Secondly, it is you who constantly bring up the OSS. I only brought it up to expand for the readers the unending feud between M&S and Frackler's IWBA, in which, the majority of the personal attacks coming from the IWBA camp.
Thirdly, you have repeatedly, deliberately mislead the readers by falsely assuming where I get my information.
I have provided the battlefield reports and police reports from various PDs, counties and state police, NOT from the OSS study you so loved to trash. In fact, I have not cited any statistics from OSS. It is only you, who attempted repeatedly to put words in my mouth.
All the battlefield reports about the 45 and the shooting reports from PDs all over the country, have nothing to do with the OSS. They are all from other sources. All the feedback on the 35 sig, 40 S&W, are from the users. None has anything to do with M&S or the OSS study. It pertains to IWBA, b/c this real world result poked holes in IWBA's theory.
It is you, who take the argument here as M&S vs Frackler IWBA.
This is where your problem is. You cannot accept the reality. The 40 S&W has a 96% one shot stop real world result. The 40 S&W is one of the most successful ammo ever introduced. And your comment is" it can't even knock down a camera light"
Here is another problem you conveniently ignored. You have gone out of your way to trash the OSS and M&S, that you forget the fact, both M&S and the IWBA camp AGREE on what the best loads are for all calibers, EXCEPT in the case of the 9mm where the 2 side disagree.
You are too blinded by your IWBA mantra on 12'' penetration and hitting vital organs, that anything else that does not support that is labelled blasphemy.
Do you see me trashing the 124+Gold Dot 9mm? Of course, penetrating (hence trashing) the vital organs, work. Of course, shot placement is paramount. But real life result also proves that shots to non-vital parts work if the wound channel is large enough. That is why ammo that does not rely on ONLY hitting the vital organs is preferred.
Thankyou for your concern. This is the internet. It is not warranted. We are all adult here. No need to patronize.
Again, it isn't about the OSS. It is about PD's reports, which you labelled as "falsified".
"..That is my choice. I want something that I know will function well in my pistol, something that has a very good change of adequate penetration and something that is accurate under stress....." And that is why, the elite military and LEO units, all choose the 45!!
The 120 lb, 20 yr old got shot with 3 HydraShok and a 12 gauge blast.
Yes, but there are several forums there in which professionals post to each other as well as the public at large. Including Shawn Dodson, Gabe Suarez, Terry Murdock, Fernandez [one time of Triton cartridge] etc and even occassionally Marshal Evans etc. Specific forums such as the Caliber forum or Cop talk is a good place to inquire their input.
Good talking with you both. Stay safe.
[/QUOTE]
A
A.R.K.
Guest
MA,
I don't see a problem here. More rounds, same penetration [given equal sectional density], less recoil, more range, less expense thereby promoting increased training per $. If you feel that the .45 is vastly superior in terminal performance to the 9mm that is fine. I would ask you to cite the study or studys that reach this conclusion for us to review. The fact that some military units have gone back to the .45 does not prove it's superiority. And remember, I have a .45 and carry it daily. I like the .45 very well, I simply do not subscribe to war stories over facts in it's abilities.
Where are these places and who are these people?
So is any handgun caliber without AP ammo.
Could you please cite your sources for SWAT teams please. By what nationally reconized survey do you base this statement? Particuarly since there are still more 9mm sidearms in service at this present time than all other service calibers combined. Additionally you may need to rethink the elite military angle. It is not correct. The Israeli's for example use the Glock 19C throughout it's IDF. I should know...I've trained with them. And I know several former SEALS that feel the 9mm is just fine...in fact their motto was '2 to the chest and 1 to the head and your DRT.'
My dear Jonathan
Never have.
I think you have done a fine job of this without my assistance. Even though MA and I disagee on some issues, we both have repeatedly, as have others, to convince you that a handgun bullet will not knock you down. Do you still beleive it will???
Attack you??? I think perhaps you need to reread my original post to you. It was and still is with respect. I have tried to educate you, and so have several others. You being resistant to this does not necesitate and attack on my part.
That have been debunked....
Not in the real world it hasn't. What is your source for this....of course it is M & S. They have been discredited, not just by the IWBA but in the professional journals. Your failure to keep up on this is not my fault. I pointed out several problems with it that you cannot refute.
Well when you have it on video tape....
I am not going to go with the latest trendy ammo in hopes that it is going to 'knock em down'. I am going to go with a proven product regardless of the caliber used. Have you bothered to read Shawn Dodson and others report on the OSS? You very well may learn something that may save your life one day. For every 'failure' with a 9mm you show me I can easily show you a 'failure' with your .40/.357sig/.45 etc. I can also show you spectacular successes with each. They are all about the same. If you get a warm fuzzy with a 1mm larger projectile at equals velocity and sectional density as the 9mm...by all means go for it. Whatever makes YOU happy :rofl:
Take care gentlemen. :asian:
I don't see a problem here. More rounds, same penetration [given equal sectional density], less recoil, more range, less expense thereby promoting increased training per $. If you feel that the .45 is vastly superior in terminal performance to the 9mm that is fine. I would ask you to cite the study or studys that reach this conclusion for us to review. The fact that some military units have gone back to the .45 does not prove it's superiority. And remember, I have a .45 and carry it daily. I like the .45 very well, I simply do not subscribe to war stories over facts in it's abilities.
Where are these places and who are these people?
So is any handgun caliber without AP ammo.
Could you please cite your sources for SWAT teams please. By what nationally reconized survey do you base this statement? Particuarly since there are still more 9mm sidearms in service at this present time than all other service calibers combined. Additionally you may need to rethink the elite military angle. It is not correct. The Israeli's for example use the Glock 19C throughout it's IDF. I should know...I've trained with them. And I know several former SEALS that feel the 9mm is just fine...in fact their motto was '2 to the chest and 1 to the head and your DRT.'
My dear Jonathan
Never have.
I think you have done a fine job of this without my assistance. Even though MA and I disagee on some issues, we both have repeatedly, as have others, to convince you that a handgun bullet will not knock you down. Do you still beleive it will???
Attack you??? I think perhaps you need to reread my original post to you. It was and still is with respect. I have tried to educate you, and so have several others. You being resistant to this does not necesitate and attack on my part.
That have been debunked....
Not in the real world it hasn't. What is your source for this....of course it is M & S. They have been discredited, not just by the IWBA but in the professional journals. Your failure to keep up on this is not my fault. I pointed out several problems with it that you cannot refute.
Well when you have it on video tape....
I am not going to go with the latest trendy ammo in hopes that it is going to 'knock em down'. I am going to go with a proven product regardless of the caliber used. Have you bothered to read Shawn Dodson and others report on the OSS? You very well may learn something that may save your life one day. For every 'failure' with a 9mm you show me I can easily show you a 'failure' with your .40/.357sig/.45 etc. I can also show you spectacular successes with each. They are all about the same. If you get a warm fuzzy with a 1mm larger projectile at equals velocity and sectional density as the 9mm...by all means go for it. Whatever makes YOU happy :rofl:
Take care gentlemen. :asian:
M
MartialArtist
Guest
Same penetration? At times, but if you're saying a 9mm can penetrate farther than a .45, you're crazy.
A FMJ .45 ACP round rips a hole through the person and can go through walls and end up in a neighbor's house. There are records of that happening. A 9mm just lacks the power. If caliber had nothing to do with power or penetration, why doesn't everyone just use a 9mm? Why the .50 cal machine guns? You make no sense. A .440 corbon has more recoil than the .50, and what's more is that it's a .50 AE with the dynamics of a .44 magnum. That thing right there can be lethal for over a mile.
Yeah, the 9mm is the most "circulated" because the M9 is issue. But nobody really uses the issue. My sources were listed in those weblinks.
Okay, with this statement "2 to the chest and 1 to the head and your DRT", I have to say that I really do have to question whether you are legit or not. I never was a real expert, but I cited my sources. You have nothing to back up other than the IWBA and you're "experience" but it's almost impossible to check your sources. The 2 to the chest and 1 to the head isn't for military combat with a handgun... It's more of a rifle motto, with the 5.56mm. A lot of the times, soldiers just don't have the time to aim for a headshot. The 2 to the chest and 1 to the head for handguns are done to make sure one is dead, not to kill him in the heat of battle. I'm surprised someone who's so experienced doesn't know that. Even criminal justice lawyers, many who've never shot a gun in their life, knows this. Smart criminals who, especially those who used to be ex-military or ex-law enforcement, do this to make sure the person they murdered is actually dead.
Having to double tap and aim for the head is painstaking and a waste of time and ammunition, and time and ammo could mean life or death. Double tapping, from the reports from JN, said that it was a waste and a nuisance, but much worse, could mean death. Double tapping, especially double tapping and aiming for the head, gives a good soldier enough time to draw his weapon. Now, as you said it yourself, what's better...
A) 3 shots from a 9mm to make sure one even goes down
B) 1 shot from a 45 to the torso to bring the man down due to injury
9mms don't have more ammo than a 10-round 1911 mag. Hell, it can't even hold more ammo than an 8-round mag.
And ZDW, you are confusing two things.
In the perspective of just pure physics, a bullet will not knock you down. However, shooting a person is different from shooting an inanimate object. Physiology and anatomy have to be taken into account, and a bullet, not due to its dynamics but to what damage it causes, brings the person down.
Example:
Get a metal dummy with a realistic human base (on two legs). Shoot the head. Doesn't go down.
Get a human who weighs just as much and has the same base and shoot the person in the head. Goes down. Unless you are Superman, you will go down.
See, that's what I mean by real-world results. Real-world takes EVERYTHING into account. You just take physics. Real-world takes physics, anatomy, etc.
A FMJ .45 ACP round rips a hole through the person and can go through walls and end up in a neighbor's house. There are records of that happening. A 9mm just lacks the power. If caliber had nothing to do with power or penetration, why doesn't everyone just use a 9mm? Why the .50 cal machine guns? You make no sense. A .440 corbon has more recoil than the .50, and what's more is that it's a .50 AE with the dynamics of a .44 magnum. That thing right there can be lethal for over a mile.
Yeah, the 9mm is the most "circulated" because the M9 is issue. But nobody really uses the issue. My sources were listed in those weblinks.
Okay, with this statement "2 to the chest and 1 to the head and your DRT", I have to say that I really do have to question whether you are legit or not. I never was a real expert, but I cited my sources. You have nothing to back up other than the IWBA and you're "experience" but it's almost impossible to check your sources. The 2 to the chest and 1 to the head isn't for military combat with a handgun... It's more of a rifle motto, with the 5.56mm. A lot of the times, soldiers just don't have the time to aim for a headshot. The 2 to the chest and 1 to the head for handguns are done to make sure one is dead, not to kill him in the heat of battle. I'm surprised someone who's so experienced doesn't know that. Even criminal justice lawyers, many who've never shot a gun in their life, knows this. Smart criminals who, especially those who used to be ex-military or ex-law enforcement, do this to make sure the person they murdered is actually dead.
Having to double tap and aim for the head is painstaking and a waste of time and ammunition, and time and ammo could mean life or death. Double tapping, from the reports from JN, said that it was a waste and a nuisance, but much worse, could mean death. Double tapping, especially double tapping and aiming for the head, gives a good soldier enough time to draw his weapon. Now, as you said it yourself, what's better...
A) 3 shots from a 9mm to make sure one even goes down
B) 1 shot from a 45 to the torso to bring the man down due to injury
9mms don't have more ammo than a 10-round 1911 mag. Hell, it can't even hold more ammo than an 8-round mag.
And ZDW, you are confusing two things.
In the perspective of just pure physics, a bullet will not knock you down. However, shooting a person is different from shooting an inanimate object. Physiology and anatomy have to be taken into account, and a bullet, not due to its dynamics but to what damage it causes, brings the person down.
Example:
Get a metal dummy with a realistic human base (on two legs). Shoot the head. Doesn't go down.
Get a human who weighs just as much and has the same base and shoot the person in the head. Goes down. Unless you are Superman, you will go down.
See, that's what I mean by real-world results. Real-world takes EVERYTHING into account. You just take physics. Real-world takes physics, anatomy, etc.
A
A.R.K.
Guest
No, I'm quite sane thank you
. It is simple physics. Penetration is a function of weight in relation to sectional density. For example, a 115 9mm has the same sectional density as a 135 .40 or a 185 .45. All will reach approx. the same penetration depth in tissue. This is not something to debate my friend 
Same for a 147 9mm/180 .40 or 230 .45 [approx].As I've shown before, a 9mm has equal or greater power aka kinetic energy than a .45. Doesn't make it better or worse. Kinetic energy is really a mute point in the handgun levels. And I assure you a hot 9mm Nato fmj will do the same...I can ASSURE or of this.
As for the '2 to the chest and 1 to the head', I think you've really gone overboard here. As I said, it's a motto just like one shot, one kill etc. It is a sound tactic if you come to find your enemy is wearing a vest however.
One round of .45 to the chest might bring down an individual but I can show you a multitude of shootings in which an individual has received several COM shots with a .45 and ran from the scene. A .45 is nice, I have one...but it's not magic. It has an overinflated reputation.
Function.....penetration.....accuracy under stress.
Stay safe. :asian:
my mind, my hands and feet
M
MartialArtist
Guest
A
A.R.K.
Guest
And there you have it
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
Does indeed have much more to say about M & S OSS study being junk science and in much greater detail than I have posted here.
Well done.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
Does indeed have much more to say about M & S OSS study being junk science and in much greater detail than I have posted here.
Well done.
M
MartialArtist
Guest
Stop ping-ponging, that was not what anybody is talking about. You are the only one claiming one supported OSS studies for some reason.Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
And there you have it
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
Does indeed have much more to say about M & S OSS study being junk science and in much greater detail than I have posted here.
Well done.
The articles there go AGAINST you. .45 over 9mm
M
MartialArtist
Guest
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm
So, what were you saying? The .45 penetrates more in general than the 9mm, and stopping power isn't even taken in account.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm
So, what were you saying? The .45 penetrates more in general than the 9mm, and stopping power isn't even taken in account.
S
Shinzu
Guest
amen.... lets get back to MA (no offense)
A
A.R.K.
Guest
arnisador,
Perhaps this is a good idea.
MA, you are welcome to PM or email if you would like to continue the discussion. I think we have taken the same road to the same place but perhaps we haven't met along the way yet. See ya on the other threads sir :asian:
Perhaps this is a good idea.
MA, you are welcome to PM or email if you would like to continue the discussion. I think we have taken the same road to the same place but perhaps we haven't met along the way yet. See ya on the other threads sir :asian:
Johnathan Napalm
Black Belt
Why even bother? ZDW or MRJ or whoever he calls himself this day, will just continue to twist the facts in desperate attempt to support his erroneous positions. It is just going in circle, repeating the same BS over and over again. May be he believes that if you repeat some lies often enough, they become truth.
ZDW is one of those who go to the airport and insist he sees UFOs landing.
Facts upon facts have been piled onto his forehead. Yet, nothing gets through. If it wasn't for the benefits of other readers who might read this thread, this has indeed being a tremenduous waste of time.
It is a good thing that since most of the BS he asserted can be easily rebutted by anyone who knows anything about firearms, little risk of potential harm to the uninformed readers remains in this thread.
The best advice to the readers is to check out the references, links and articles provided. You can decide for yourself.
ZDW is one of those who go to the airport and insist he sees UFOs landing.
Facts upon facts have been piled onto his forehead. Yet, nothing gets through. If it wasn't for the benefits of other readers who might read this thread, this has indeed being a tremenduous waste of time.
It is a good thing that since most of the BS he asserted can be easily rebutted by anyone who knows anything about firearms, little risk of potential harm to the uninformed readers remains in this thread.
The best advice to the readers is to check out the references, links and articles provided. You can decide for yourself.
A
A.R.K.
Guest
Do you feel better now :rofl:
By the way...I don't believe in UFO's.
And I fully agree with the one factual thing you've wrote so far...
Cheerio :ultracool
By the way...I don't believe in UFO's.
And I fully agree with the one factual thing you've wrote so far...
Cheerio :ultracool
Johnathan Napalm
Black Belt
It is NOT about feeling better.
It is to prevent uninitiated readers from been mislead into arming themselves with over-penetrating, and under-expanding ammo, that end up getting themselves killed.
Your info is dangerously misleading.
If you were the firearm expert that you want people to believe, you would have known:
1. If people arm themselves with AMMO that require them to get only shots to vital organs, they put themselves in an extremely dangerous situation. When people encountered danger, or awakened in the middle of the night, their ability to stay cool, calm and then AIM precisely at the criminal's vital organs, is GREATLY compromised.
When they arm themselves with over-penetrating ammo, one shot-stop is compromised.
Therefore, they MUST equip themselves with AMMO that have ONE-SHOT STOP ability w/o needing to "shoot 2 times into the chest and shoot 1 more at the head". They wouldn't be able to do that when they are flushed with adrenaline and panic.
Martial Artist posted that the shotgun is the best choice in those situation.
2. The 45 has 65% more cross section area than the 9mm. It is very dishonest of you to pretend that the difference is only 2mm and therefore pretend that it is not as effective as the 9mm. The 45 has been proven in battlefields for so many decades. The lethality of the 45 is beyond question.
3. The FBI SWAT, FBI HRT, the LAPD SWAT all use the 45. MA listed the military elite that use the 45. When it is mission critical, the 45 enters the scene.
4. You posted that a PD adopted the 40 and the qualification went down. An honest man would know that is b/c the 40 is a more powerful round than the 9mm, and hence it requires more practice to be proficient. This flies in the face of your baseless argument that the 40 is only 1 mm larger than the 9mm and "cannot hit a camera light off" . You have this incredible and shameless ability to post selective information to mislead readers. You posted that the 45 is only 2 mm larger than the 9mm, knowing that such reasoning is garbage. The 223 is only 0.003 larger than the 22, yet what a difference! If you didn't know this, than you are even more worthless than you have presented. You posted that a 20 yr old 120 lb guy still needed to be phyisically restrained after been shot with 3 Hydrashok and a 12 gauge and tried to present that as your proof that the 12 gauge was not lethal. Obviously if that story is even true at all, they must be mitigating circumstances that contribute to his surving those shots. Anyone who know anything about firearm would know that , a center blast from a 12 gauge within effective range, is DEADLY. If hit in the chest, a gapping wound. IF the limb, you lost that limb. It is totaly dishonest of you to post that story to mislead the readers into the false belief that taking a 12 gauge blast is not going to kill you. Your dishonesty went further when you posted that someone survived a blowblack of the bolt from a 50 and argued that the 50 is not deadly. The list goes on. Examples and examples of intellectual dishonesty by selectively posting information with the intend that the readers would reach the erroneous conclusion.
I have a strong sense of kinship with RSK. WE both dislike fraud with a passion.
If you simply hold on to erroneous views, that is understandable. But to deliberately posting selective information, and to deliberately misinterpret facts, to mislead the readers into believing something that is false, is the conduct of a crook.
It is to prevent uninitiated readers from been mislead into arming themselves with over-penetrating, and under-expanding ammo, that end up getting themselves killed.
Your info is dangerously misleading.
If you were the firearm expert that you want people to believe, you would have known:
1. If people arm themselves with AMMO that require them to get only shots to vital organs, they put themselves in an extremely dangerous situation. When people encountered danger, or awakened in the middle of the night, their ability to stay cool, calm and then AIM precisely at the criminal's vital organs, is GREATLY compromised.
When they arm themselves with over-penetrating ammo, one shot-stop is compromised.
Therefore, they MUST equip themselves with AMMO that have ONE-SHOT STOP ability w/o needing to "shoot 2 times into the chest and shoot 1 more at the head". They wouldn't be able to do that when they are flushed with adrenaline and panic.
Martial Artist posted that the shotgun is the best choice in those situation.
2. The 45 has 65% more cross section area than the 9mm. It is very dishonest of you to pretend that the difference is only 2mm and therefore pretend that it is not as effective as the 9mm. The 45 has been proven in battlefields for so many decades. The lethality of the 45 is beyond question.
3. The FBI SWAT, FBI HRT, the LAPD SWAT all use the 45. MA listed the military elite that use the 45. When it is mission critical, the 45 enters the scene.
4. You posted that a PD adopted the 40 and the qualification went down. An honest man would know that is b/c the 40 is a more powerful round than the 9mm, and hence it requires more practice to be proficient. This flies in the face of your baseless argument that the 40 is only 1 mm larger than the 9mm and "cannot hit a camera light off" . You have this incredible and shameless ability to post selective information to mislead readers. You posted that the 45 is only 2 mm larger than the 9mm, knowing that such reasoning is garbage. The 223 is only 0.003 larger than the 22, yet what a difference! If you didn't know this, than you are even more worthless than you have presented. You posted that a 20 yr old 120 lb guy still needed to be phyisically restrained after been shot with 3 Hydrashok and a 12 gauge and tried to present that as your proof that the 12 gauge was not lethal. Obviously if that story is even true at all, they must be mitigating circumstances that contribute to his surving those shots. Anyone who know anything about firearm would know that , a center blast from a 12 gauge within effective range, is DEADLY. If hit in the chest, a gapping wound. IF the limb, you lost that limb. It is totaly dishonest of you to post that story to mislead the readers into the false belief that taking a 12 gauge blast is not going to kill you. Your dishonesty went further when you posted that someone survived a blowblack of the bolt from a 50 and argued that the 50 is not deadly. The list goes on. Examples and examples of intellectual dishonesty by selectively posting information with the intend that the readers would reach the erroneous conclusion.
I have a strong sense of kinship with RSK. WE both dislike fraud with a passion.
If you simply hold on to erroneous views, that is understandable. But to deliberately posting selective information, and to deliberately misinterpret facts, to mislead the readers into believing something that is false, is the conduct of a crook.
- Status
