Whats The Point?

[OULobo]

I don't really know that much about knife martial arts but I was wondering what is the point of learning them? In a self defense situation or in a street fight are you always going to have a knife in handy? And if you just rely on the knife and if you encounter an experienced martial artist who takes it away how will you fight?

In a very respectfull manner since I want to learn more about this art and I don't know much about this, I really have not understood why you would learn this martial art?

Can someone explain the history of this art?
Thank you.

Tarek :asian:

Ahh. . . my favorite subject. . . sharp pointy things, or this particular sub-catagory, short sharp pointy things that cut.

Am I always going to have a knife, no, but I do have one most of the time. The knife arts are not only about the knife. The knife is a center and starting point for some arts. Some FMAs teach that the art is the same and still effective with or without the blade. Another point is that a punch is nice, but a punch with a knife pointed at your target is much better, well mabey not better for the guy getting punched. As for getting the knife taken away, well that's why I carry two or three or four or. . . plus most knifers know that the knife is your life, if you lose it or the other guy gets it, you got trouble. So we train real hard on weapon retention.

 

[MA-Caver]

I don't really know that much about knife martial arts but I was wondering what is the point of learning them? In a self defense situation or in a street fight are you always going to have a knife in handy? And if you just rely on the knife and if you encounter an experienced martial artist who takes it away how will you fight?

In a very respectful manner since I want to learn more about this art and I don't know much about this, I really have not understood why you would learn this martial art?Tarek :asian:

I'll just add one thing to all that has been said so far...what my oldest brother taught me when I was younger.
The why is simple: "Because there is no such thing as a fair fight."

:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

To not learn how to deal with weapons in self defense, simply put, is not prudent self defense at all.

On the surface...it seems that weapon encounters, or blade encounters, are not statistically probable because in only about 1/3 of violent crimes, weapons are involved, and that includes firearms. So it seems that you have a 2/3 chance of there not being a weapon involved if you are in a violent encounter.

However, it is all about how you look at the stats. The violent crimes included in these stats are domestic violence, child abuse, and rape (including date rape). These three make up the majority of all violent crime, and weapons are generally not used in these crimes. So...the fact is, if you are an adult, and not subject or likely to be in a domestic violence or date rape situation, then most likely if you are in a violent encounter, it WILL involve a weapon. Old fashioned "fist fights" just don't happen anymore.

Now, this covers all weapons including firearms. However, Firearms only make up about 1/3 of weapon encounters. So, if your like me, if your in a violent encounter a weapon will most likely be involved, and most likely it wont be a firearm. So...whats left? A knife, blunt object, or improvised weapon of some sort.

So...it is only good self defense to include weapons, (both sharp and blunt objects) in your training.

My take...

:asian:

 

[Emptyglass]

I don't really know that much about knife martial arts but I was wondering what is the point of learning them? In a self defense situation or in a street fight are you always going to have a knife in handy? And if you just rely on the knife and if you encounter an experienced martial artist who takes it away how will you fight?

Tarek :asian:

Hi Tarek:

These are very good questions. Honestly, my question for you what is your goal in learning any martial art? Health, self-defense, self-esteem, relaxation, becoming an artist?

If you are doing this primarily for self-defense, then learning to use and defend against a knife in at least a rudimentary fashion is a must in my mind. Knives are easily accessible, easy to conceal, force multiplying tools which become very deadly in even a child's hand.

I feel they are worth at least some serious study and practice in good, solid, simple defenses if you have no interest in using one as a defensive weapon (which is absolutely fine by the way).

Personally I train in the martial arts primarily for self-defense and the value of expressing myself through them. Also there is a strong academic interest as well. Edged tools are a part of that training and I feel better about my safety because of it.

If you are involved in learning a martial art for the other reasons, then there is absolutely no reason for you to address knife training if you feel comfortable that you would be safe without it. That is a personal (and possibly ethical) decision only you can make.

If you want to read some interesting, no bull information about knife combatives, fighting and use, check out this web page:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html

I've found it very useful and interesting reading.

Best of of luck,

Rich Curren

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Others who have posted here have already made excellent points - including the close-quarters and rapid nature of fighting with a knife, the fact that many people carry them, and so forth.

I would also just add that, as part of my FMA training, not only does the dagger training allow me to train in a different range (than say some or most of the stick training), but with a bladed weapon come different challenges and possibilities. I learn because it is fascinating to me, and I want to learn the art. But it also, like with other MA training, pushes me to think about how variable a situation can become. Suddenly the other person draws a knife out of nowhere. Suddenly I draw mine. Now what happens? Not fun for a real-life situation, but thinking about it and working it in class is challenging.
And if you so choose, you could be armed with a knife probably 90% of the time, at least.

 

[Flatlander]

It took me an hour to find this, because I forgot where it was. Again, I say, there is value in reading historical threads. None the less, this post was made by a gentleman who goes by Tulisan, and, without his permission, I am going to show you the part of the post that really illustrates "the point". Thank you Paul, for posting this in the first place. It was a discussion about the effectiveness of a simple boxcutter....

With all due respect, a semi-trained knife player would kill you with one of those without a whole lot of problems.

The tool is razor sharp, and can sever most major arteries, despite what you might think. You don't need a large blade to do this. Your inside arms, neck, and inside leg arteries could all cut to pieces with ease.

Not to mention all the preliminary cuts, and what those would do to you.

Imagine this for a moment:

a wildly slashing attacker with a box cutter... you close the gap like the good martial artists you are, and your right followed by your left moves in for the trap, as you move to deliver a powerful blow with your foot to his knee, hoping to be able to follow up with a successful disarm and barrage of strikes to the head. As you trap, your right hand becomes warm and mushy and wet for some reason. Your left hand stings like you've never felt before, as you expected to catch his wrist with your left, yet you can't even close your hand at all. Your kick thumps against something, but your focus was thrown completely off, as you glance at your arms to see blood pumping with every throb of your fast beating heart out of an artery from a gash in the inside of your left elbow; the other gash along your left forearm looks like a piece of rare beef hanging off bone. Your right palm is only cut prematurely on the palm, but that seems to sting now more then the left. But you've already stumbled with your footwork unconsciously, so you have to readjust to try to grab or punch him with your only working limb...your right hand. However, during the milisecond it takes for you to process this, you can almost hear the Pop of your right eye, as now you can no longer see out of it. You make a last ditch effort to flail a strike with your right hand as your head flinches back, and as your scream is immediately muffled by a girgling sound. You're out of breath, but when you try to inhale, all you can breathe in is warm liquid. You think you're on the ground by the back of your head hitting a surface of somekind, but all you can see is blackness, as you no longer know which way is up, with your last memory being your right hand measuring the size of the gash in your throat, and the question of "what just happend in the last 3 seconds?" burning in your mind.

See the point?
:asian:

 

[Guro Harold]

It took me an hour to find this, because I forgot where it was. Again, I say, there is value in reading historical threads. None the less, this post was made by a gentleman who goes by Tulisan, and, without his permission, I am going to show you the part of the post that really illustrates "the point". Thank you Paul, for posting this in the first place. It was a discussion about the effectiveness of a simple boxcutter....


See the point?
:asian:

Hi Flatlander,

Great research!

This is not a Mod request but if possible could you copy the link so that others can reference the original thread. That way it will save the headache that you went though for others.

Actually, That link can be used for a couple of other threads as well.

Thanks,

Palusut

 

[dohap]

Also, familiarization is important with any weapon you decide to add to your arsenal be it knife, gun, nunchaku, stick, etcetera.

If you are taking martial arts for self-defense purposes (in it to win it), I think it's important to understand what the bad guy (or other guy) has and how to use it if you manage to get it away from them.

Good luck and HWARANG!!

SheSulsa: who is Your teacher?

 

[shesulsa]

SheSulsa: who is Your teacher?

Why do you ask?

 

[dohap]

just ask about the lineage

 

[mcjon77]

The thing I like about the FMA is that in training with knives and sticks you are training with weapons that are literally everywhere. This is pretty obvious with a stick, but just as true with a knife. One thing I like to keep in mind when thinking about a knife is that a knife can be thought of as any hand held object that punctures the flesh through cutting and/or stabbing. One could use a piece of broken glass or metal and sometimes even plastic (crack a CD in half and notice the edges on it). If you absolutely had to have a cutting instrument RIGHT NOW you could simply break the monitor you are reading this post on and use the glass from the screen as an improvised bladed weapon.

I was watching a knife fighting DVD last night that focused on solo drills. One was a 10 angle stabbing drill that can be done on a wooden post to develop power. In watching that I thought "Hell, I don't need a knife to practice that. I can can do that with a screwdriver." Then the follow up thought was that If I could do it with a screwdriver on something as hard as wood, I could use a screwdriver, a pen or even a pencil on something as soft as flesh. You can take a pen or pencil practically anywhere.

Jon

 

[Littledragon]

Hi Tarek:

These are very good questions. Honestly, my question for you what is your goal in learning any martial art? Health, self-defense, self-esteem, relaxation, becoming an artist?

If you are doing this primarily for self-defense, then learning to use and defend against a knife in at least a rudimentary fashion is a must in my mind. Knives are easily accessible, easy to conceal, force multiplying tools which become very deadly in even a child's hand.

I feel they are worth at least some serious study and practice in good, solid, simple defenses if you have no interest in using one as a defensive weapon (which is absolutely fine by the way).

Personally I train in the martial arts primarily for self-defense and the value of expressing myself through them. Also there is a strong academic interest as well. Edged tools are a part of that training and I feel better about my safety because of it.

If you are involved in learning a martial art for the other reasons, then there is absolutely no reason for you to address knife training if you feel comfortable that you would be safe without it. That is a personal (and possibly ethical) decision only you can make.

If you want to read some interesting, no bull information about knife combatives, fighting and use, check out this web page:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html

I've found it very useful and interesting reading.

Best of of luck,

Rich Curren

Thank you for the link. Some good stuff.

My goal is for self-defense and to be the best.

 

[shesulsa]

just ask about the lineage

Who is yours, Sir?

 

[shesulsa]

Dohap -

I was curious - some international websites have English pages - I don't mean to be an ignorant, monolingual American, but I would very much like to read your site. I noticed you referenced Mr. DeAlba's School, Bob Duggan's Society and the WHRDA. So I'm curious - may I ask if you are a WHRDA member?

She-Sulsa

 

[dohap]

Currently I'm not a WHRDA member, although I was long time ago.
My teacher in Korean arts is GM DeAlba.
Web site is going to be changed soon due to some teaching changes, so English version is coming also.

 

[Trent]

All good points brought up in previous posts, and Sayoc Kali is an excellent knife art. Much of what they do looks alot like what we do. It has been said, "There is no silat without the knife."

Another thing knife training will do is amp up your martial methodology. Meaning, it will quite glaringly show holes in your defenses, improper angulation, footwork and entries allowing a potentially fatal encounter as any hit with a good, sharp knife is damaging, and possibly lethal. Some arts or individuals will take a hit on the way in thinking their training will allow them to win once the clinch is made; a foolish proposition if the other guy has a knife. And many people carry knives for various reasons. Ones with nefarious intent may not even show you the blade except as they are taking it out for another stab. It helps self-defense tactics and awareness to keep these things in mind as well.

 

[Gary Crawford]

Fantastic thread! I've only been seriously knife training for the last three years and I apreciate everyones take on the subject.I did a little experiment when I first started getting serious about this that was very educational.We experimented with felt markers instead of knives.We tried defending against knife attackers and one on one knife fights.After examining all the marks on us and realising what kind of injuries they cause and considering how they would effect us if they were real cuts,I looked at it completely differently.

 

[shesulsa]

I've heard of training with markers - another way would be to use colored, oil-free powder on a wooden knife covered with chamois - it washes out of uniforms.

 

[arnisador]

There's a training knife out there that advises using lipstick:
http://www.nolieblades.com/products.php

The No Lie Blade Kit ships with cosmetics grade lipstick however you may use other marking media's such as chalk, children's washable paints, non permanent inks, etc. We chose Lipstick because it meets all of the following criteria: Non-Toxic, multi-colored, inexpenive, easily purchased anywhere in the world, non-drying, populates the felt to large degree resulting in continous marking aprox. 15 to 20 slashes per blade side.

 

[Flatlander]

Advisable to change clothes before leaving training, after using these types of methods. Don't want to freak the people out.