Is there a point to learning how to knife fight?

[Rich Parsons]

You're in a restaurant eating dinner? Seems like you might just as well have a steak knife in your hand. Or a heavy glass, a mug, bottle of wine... good lord, if you need weapons the only place better than the table is the kitchen!

Geezer, the Steak knife had less of an edge than the butter knife. Also pulling out two pens and drawing pictures and tapping them like drum sticks was much better than clearing a blade of my own. Also it was a Wednesday before Thanksgiving so everything was plastic (yuck) and they served my beer in a glass only after I refused to accept a craft beer in plastic.

There were all the fresh new 21 year olds all looking to show the world they came back from college and could legally drink.

I tried telling the others that it was not a good night. They learned the hard way that night.

Now, back to my situation. While tapping the beat of the music, everyone at the table stopped and got quiet and then one finally asked me who was going to die. I then used it as a learning experience for them to look around and pick out what I was concerned about.

In the end I explained to really drunk guy with his partially drunk friend that I would stand up and he would knock me out and I would have a seizure and while I was trashing around I would break his ankles and send him to the hospital.
The drunk guy yelled YEAH! and teh semi drunk guy sobered some and looked at me and dragged his friend away.

 

[lklawson]

And @lklawson, Kirk I appreciate your insights.. like you are saying the pen can have the element of surprise –I guess provided it is not an obvious tac pen- and is there where a knife is forbidden.. what I want to ask you is in a situation where you believe you may have to use a weapon and have only a pen to hand would you feel capable with that improvised weapon or compromised for lacking the efficiency of your blade? Like is the pen enough or do you feel ill equipped with it or would it really just depend on how and what you had trained?

Honestly? Both. A pen is a sucky weapon but it beats no weapon at all. I know that's not the answer you were looking for, but it's the truth.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Rich Parsons]

And @Rich Parsons, Rich! It is great to have your thoughts, yes you are exactly right, this is what I mean about being seen to have caused a problem because I had a weapon rather than some thing I improvised.. this did happen before where I had carried a blade (only for appearance since I have no skill with it) and had been put in a situation where I had to take it out though I did not use it or even know what I intended to do except scare them.. they ended up calling the Met and I got stopped and cautioned before I had even reached home and so I do not want to be in a situation where it is like *I* am the bad guy even though I am minding my business.. hence the pen.. it is just a pen I know how to use it as yawara/kubotan and so now nobody can say nothing.. so my question is to you and the others who do use and can use blades is, would there be any occasion where you could equally deploy a pen or a blade where you would actually choose the pen.. why am I asking? because it could be that I am deluding my self about being able to defend my self with a dumb pen or improvised key whip or whatever.. hope I am making sense.. thank you Jx

I like the pens as I can deploy earlier and not be a threat.

And to be honest, when others have deployed a knife and rushed me and I had a knife on me, I was too busy avoiding the blade and empty hand counter attacks to deploy the knife at that time.

If I needed a weapon I would prefer the one for the situation.

I like pens, and folder knives. The Folder I carry is used more for boxes and packages and work related tasks.

Not sure how to answer as I have not had the choice or option where I had not already deployed the not threat first.

** Edit **
I agree a Pen is less of a weapon than a blade.

 

[Danny T]

@Danny T that is quite an arsenal for your edc.. I hope there is not cause for you to have to use it in future and but you sound like the right man to ask.. you had referred to a force continuum which is perfectly clear can you explain a bit more.. is that continuum flexible or situationally dependent or would the pen *always* be less preferred than say the knife if it came to protecting your self or kids or grand kids (you have grand kids really? ) Thank you Jx

Just being prepared.
I also have a fire extinguisher, a tool kit, and an emergency first aid kit in my vehicles and in my home I have backup methods for fire if it were to happen. Not wanting to have to use them either…

For me it is about being aware of the environment, what is happening, and being prepared. I would much rather leave a dangerous situation if possible, communicate/talk my way out or allowing the other to have enough sense of up-man ship to save face than fight but that the other also knows I will defend myself if it comes to that.

Now as to which tool to use:
It’s not that the pen is ‘less preferred’ but what is best for the situation. If all I have is a knife then everything begins to be something to be cut or stab when that may not be required at all.

Would a simple *step back or a push away* always be less preferred than punch or a knife? It will always depend upon the situation. Not all self-defense actions are life threatening nor require deadly force.

 

[drop bear]

And @lklawson, Kirk I appreciate your insights.. like you are saying the pen can have the element of surprise –I guess provided it is not an obvious tac pen- and is there where a knife is forbidden.. what I want to ask you is in a situation where you believe you may have to use a weapon and have only a pen to hand would you feel capable with that improvised weapon or compromised for lacking the efficiency of your blade? Like is the pen enough or do you feel ill equipped with it or would it really just depend on how and what you had trained? Hope this make some sense.. Thank you again Jx

Anyone I have considered using a pen on. I would really need a baseball bat for.

I mean you don't get pushed at the bus stop and go on a pen stabbing frenzy. You are going to do this thing if they are either huge or have a weapon.

And then you look at your advantages and realise that your advantage is you are holding a pen.

And then you start looking for an exit not a fight.

 

[Sapphire]

I would like to say that training with a knife isn't necessary for everyone, but training on understanding the deadliness and the painfulness of a knife attack is very necessary.

A gun against a knife is only useful from 21 feet and beyond. Any less than that, and you risk accuracy of your shot, or safety of your person. Either you don't put the bullets into the knife wielding assailant, or you don't get out of the way of the blade in time. And a knife can do a lot of damage even with one cut, because blood belongs inside your body, and even a dull knifes cut will cause all sorts of blood loss, which will severely impair ones fighting prowess and in not much time. Also, if anyone has been cut with a SHARP knife, they know full well that a dull knife hurts much more, and pain = shock = losing the fight. I have heard that expert knife fighters will dull their blade or even allow their blade to slightly rust to cause more pain in a fight, rather than just cause blood loss.

What any person who thinks about their ability to defend themselves should know is just how serious even a glancing knife wound can be. I'm not talking infection and gangrene, I'm talking about the pain of a knife wound or the sudden feeling of dizziness, nausea and confusion that comes from blood loss and/or a punctured organ. Have you ever donated blood and become dehydrated? Have you ever gone hiking and gotten heatstroke? Or perhaps suffered a mild concussion? Now imagine that when someone is trying to take your life. I can't stress how dangerous a knife can be, but I know some people have already pointed that out, which is why I want to say this:

Nobody needs to learn how to wield a knife, but everyone needs to practice perceiving a threat, and how to avoid a knife that's drawn. And the only way to truly instill that into ones mind is to understand how severe a knife wound can get in only 60 seconds time. I strongly recommend everyone to do the marker lesson. Buy some cheap markers and wear some old shirts you don't mind getting drawn on. Have one person wield the marker like a knife, and have one person defend themselves. Treat EVERY SPOT ON THE UNARMED PERSONS SHIRT, ARM OR LEG AS A DEADLY KNIFE WOUND. A knife wound that requires a blood transfusion and stitches, asap. THAT is what I personally think is very important for people to know, even if they never study martial arts once in their life.

 

[Tgace]

A gun against a knife is only useful from 21 feet and beyond. Any less than that, and you risk accuracy of your shot, or safety of your person. Either you don't put the bullets into the knife wielding assailant, or you don't get out of the way of the blade in time. And a knife can do a lot of damage even with one cut, because blood belongs inside your body, and even a dull knifes cut will cause all sorts of blood loss, which will severely impair ones fighting prowess and in not much time. Also, if anyone has been cut with a SHARP knife, they know full well that a dull knife hurts much more, and pain = shock = losing the fight. I have heard that expert knife fighters will dull their blade or even allow their blade to slightly rust to cause more pain in a fight, rather than just cause blood loss.

The Tueller Drill (AKA 21 Foot Rule) is kind of misunderstood by MANY martial arts instructors and cops. A gun is a weapon like many others with advantages/disadvantages at various ranges. There are effective ways to use a gun at CQB ranges if you are trained in them and know when to use them.

For more info:

TDA Training Of Knives Guns and 21 feet guest post by tgace

 

[Buka]

The Tueller Drill (AKA 21 Foot Rule) is kind of misunderstood by MANY martial arts instructors and cops. A gun is a weapon like many others with advantages/disadvantages at various ranges. There are effective ways to use a gun at CQB ranges if you are trained in them and know when to use them.

For more info:

TDA Training Of Knives Guns and 21 feet guest post by tgace

Thank you, my friend, this is altar I was raised on. I hope everyone reads this, thinks about it and explores it more, and I hope they click on every link and do the same.

 

[Tgace]

Thank you, my friend, this is altar I was raised on. I hope everyone reads this, thinks about it and explores it more, and I hope they click on every link and do the same.

Thing is....too many people want simple tropes to base their philosophy on.

When there's a meme in play like "the knife is superior because it never needs reloading"....its difficult to get people off of it. Far more difficult than seriously studying what the Tueller Drill is about.

Any weapons " superiority " is more about the training, tactics and mindset of the person holding it than it is about the weapon itself.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[Sapphire]

The Tueller Drill (AKA 21 Foot Rule) is kind of misunderstood by MANY martial arts instructors and cops. A gun is a weapon like many others with advantages/disadvantages at various ranges. There are effective ways to use a gun at CQB ranges if you are trained in them and know when to use them.

For more info:

TDA Training Of Knives Guns and 21 feet guest post by tgace

Aw, dang, now I have to write an essay for you. Lol, so be it. I agree with the majority of what's said in this link, though.

Thing is....too many people want simple tropes to base their philosophy on.

When there's a meme in play like "the knife is superior because it never needs reloading"....its difficult to get people off of it. Far more difficult than seriously studying what the Tueller Drill is about.

Any weapons " superiority " is more about the training, tactics and mindset of the person holding it than it is about the weapon itself.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

In my CMA school we discussed how "fast" the tiger fork is, compared to how "fast" the spear is, and how "fast" any other weapon is. Fact is the weapon is only as fast as their user, so I definitely agree, it's all about training, tactics, and mindset.

 

[Danny T]

Thing is....too many people want simple tropes to base their philosophy on.

When there's a meme in play like "the knife is superior because it never needs reloading"....its difficult to get people off of it. Far more difficult than seriously studying what the Tueller Drill is about.

Any weapons " superiority " is more about the training, tactics and mindset of the person holding it than it is about the weapon itself.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

What is applicable and when is it applicable.
Awareness, a honest understanding of the possible dangers and how to appropriately deal with them. Practicing, fun scenario playing, positive reinforcement of good decisions and actions, aggressive scenario playing again with positive rewards when appropriate actions are performed. Make it fun then make it intense! One will then be better able to recognize the threat, know the potential proper actions, and respond appropriately.

 

[lklawson]

The Tueller Drill (AKA 21 Foot Rule) is kind of misunderstood by MANY martial arts instructors and cops. A gun is a weapon like many others with advantages/disadvantages at various ranges. There are effective ways to use a gun at CQB ranges if you are trained in them and know when to use them.

For more info:

TDA Training Of Knives Guns and 21 feet guest post by tgace

Tueller was late to the paty by about 100 years. Bowie Knife expert, Louis J. Ohnimus gave the distance at 20 feet way back in 1890!

Six Inches of Steel Bowie knife fighting instruction by Louis Juan Ohnimus 1890

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk