Whats The Point?

[Littledragon]

I don't really know that much about knife martial arts but I was wondering what is the point of learning them? In a self defense situation or in a street fight are you always going to have a knife in handy? And if you just rely on the knife and if you encounter an experienced martial artist who takes it away how will you fight?

In a very respectfull manner since I want to learn more about this art and I don't know much about this, I really have not understood why you would learn this martial art?

Can someone explain the history of this art?
Thank you.

Tarek :asian:

 

[nonono90]

I am by no means an expert on knife related martial arts, but I'll try and explain why knife training is important.

1st point: You never know if a person is armed with a weapon. You can make an educated guess from various factors, but you just don't know for sure. Its true that you can kill or seriously injure a person very easily with empty hands, but that is even more true with the knife.

Say someone picks a fight with you, and you are forced to fight the person. If the opponent is competent it is most likely he will not allow you to know he is armed and intends to use his weapon. You throw your attack, lets say something like a punching combo, jab, cross hook. You throw a jab, he parries and uses his knife to slash open your forearm, bi or tri. This is known as gunting in the FMA. Through that motion he limits your ability to deliver impact techniques. Real basic example

Another one, say you are fighting someone and you both goto the ground. Best scenario you fall into a joint lock/break or choke. Lets say you have the mount or the individuals back. While you are going for your submission or pummeling him, he will access his knife. Grappling is a great defense but in an amred encounter your limbs are almost always within easy access to an oppenents hands. Lets say you have his back and are trying to choke him out with a Guilitine(sp?). He takes his knife out of his pocket, slashes your femoral artery open, on either one of your legs, or he begins thrusting the knife into your kidneys, or cutting your arms. Not even to mention stabing you in the face(eyeballs) or cutting the jugular. Any where that his hand can touch could be a cut.

Point 2: If you do not understand how to fight with a knife, how do you expect to know how to defend. Best way to exemplify this is to look at empty hand skills. After training for some time you start to understand the dynamics of empty hand fighting. You know that you must be in range for the punch to land. So you sit out of range, and either tempt the opponent to fire a punch at you, or you make your own entry. That is a very basic tactic but many untrained/trained people do not understand it. Now imagine if someone was fighting you who did not understand the importance of range. You would have a huge advantage. If you do not know how the effectively attack with a knife you cannot know how to effectively defend.

About the knife carry....
If you are serious about self defense you will make sure to have a multi-level self defense strategy. I saw you did aikido, I do as well. For me my first level of self defense is to uses my pain compliance and joint locks to control an oppenent, if i feel that will be safe for me to do and effective. Secondary level comes impact techniques, third comes impact techniques to vital targets(eyeballs, throat, groin, joints) and joint breaks, then lastly the use of weapons. This is by no means a static strategy, really depends on the situation. Maybe its a female of 120 pounds trying to attack me and i use level one or it could be a 6'6" 300pounder that has me in the mount pounding my brains in. What I am saying is that a knife is a good thing to add to your self defense strategy because you will not always be able to defend yourself using empty hand tactics against an armed or unarmed attack.


I think you would be suprised how many people carry knives. Most that I see are in the form of folders which are pretty easy to spot. Most people carry them in pants pockets. If you see a metalic, silver/polished or black clip, probably a knife. I would say I notice a couple people each day carrying knives when I am around town.


Many people serious about self defense make sure to carry weapons when ever they leave the house, some even carry in the house.

If you are attempting to attack someone with a knife and they disarm you that should be enough to convince you that you need to either A run like hell or B be prepared to die. In a real life situation against a trained knife fighter, disarms by an unarmed person are very difficult. Atleast in my opinion and experience playing around with other and training knives. If a person disarms you that means that they probably have a lot higher skill level and will "woop" you. Only studying knife fighting is a fault in self defense training just like only training open hand or stand up skills. But most knife fighting systems and tactics transfer over to empty hand because the knife is only an extention of the arm.

Another thing to concider is why you train, for the artistic aspect or self defense?

Hope this gave you something to think about.

 

[Littledragon]

I am by no means an expert on knife related martial arts, but I'll try and explain why knife training is important.

1st point: You never know if a person is armed with a weapon. You can make an educated guess from various factors, but you just don't know for sure. Its true that you can kill or seriously injure a person very easily with empty hands, but that is even more true with the knife.

Say someone picks a fight with you, and you are forced to fight the person. If the opponent is competent it is most likely he will not allow you to know he is armed and intends to use his weapon. You throw your attack, lets say something like a punching combo, jab, cross hook. You throw a jab, he parries and uses his knife to slash open your forearm, bi or tri. This is known as gunting in the FMA. Through that motion he limits your ability to deliver impact techniques. Real basic example

Another one, say you are fighting someone and you both goto the ground. Best scenario you fall into a joint lock/break or choke. Lets say you have the mount or the individuals back. While you are going for your submission or pummeling him, he will access his knife. Grappling is a great defense but in an amred encounter your limbs are almost always within easy access to an oppenents hands. Lets say you have his back and are trying to choke him out with a Guilitine(sp?). He takes his knife out of his pocket, slashes your femoral artery open, on either one of your legs, or he begins thrusting the knife into your kidneys, or cutting your arms. Not even to mention stabing you in the face(eyeballs) or cutting the jugular. Any where that his hand can touch could be a cut.

Point 2: If you do not understand how to fight with a knife, how do you expect to know how to defend. Best way to exemplify this is to look at empty hand skills. After training for some time you start to understand the dynamics of empty hand fighting. You know that you must be in range for the punch to land. So you sit out of range, and either tempt the opponent to fire a punch at you, or you make your own entry. That is a very basic tactic but many untrained/trained people do not understand it. Now imagine if someone was fighting you who did not understand the importance of range. You would have a huge advantage. If you do not know how the effectively attack with a knife you cannot know how to effectively defend.

About the knife carry....
If you are serious about self defense you will make sure to have a multi-level self defense strategy. I saw you did aikido, I do as well. For me my first level of self defense is to uses my pain compliance and joint locks to control an oppenent, if i feel that will be safe for me to do and effective. Secondary level comes impact techniques, third comes impact techniques to vital targets(eyeballs, throat, groin, joints) and joint breaks, then lastly the use of weapons. This is by no means a static strategy, really depends on the situation. Maybe its a female of 120 pounds trying to attack me and i use level one or it could be a 6'6" 300pounder that has me in the mount pounding my brains in. What I am saying is that a knife is a good thing to add to your self defense strategy because you will not always be able to defend yourself using empty hand tactics against an armed or unarmed attack.


I think you would be suprised how many people carry knives. Most that I see are in the form of folders which are pretty easy to spot. Most people carry them in pants pockets. If you see a metalic, silver/polished or black clip, probably a knife. I would say I notice a couple people each day carrying knives when I am around town.


Many people serious about self defense make sure to carry weapons when ever they leave the house, some even carry in the house.

If you are attempting to attack someone with a knife and they disarm you that should be enough to convince you that you need to either A run like hell or B be prepared to die. In a real life situation against a trained knife fighter, disarms by an unarmed person are very difficult. Atleast in my opinion and experience playing around with other and training knives. If a person disarms you that means that they probably have a lot higher skill level and will "woop" you. Only studying knife fighting is a fault in self defense training just like only training open hand or stand up skills. But most knife fighting systems and tactics transfer over to empty hand because the knife is only an extention of the arm.

Another thing to concider is why you train, for the artistic aspect or self defense?

Hope this gave you something to think about.

Thanks very much for that great insight. I have learned alot from this post and have a new understanding on this style now.

Like I said before a "SUPERB" Martial Artist must be a multi dimentional fighter and never limited or trapped in one specific style.
Thanks again,
Tarek:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't really know that much about knife martial arts but I was wondering what is the point of learning them? In a self defense situation or in a street fight are you always going to have a knife in handy? And if you just rely on the knife and if you encounter an experienced martial artist who takes it away how will you fight?

In a very respectfull manner since I want to learn more about this art and I don't know much about this, I really have not understood why you would learn this martial art?

Can someone explain the history of this art?
Thank you.

Tarek :asian:

Go take a look in your kitchen and count how many knives are in there. Times that by every houshold in the world, add the occasional hunting knife, box cutter, exacto knife, and razor blade. Then ask your self again,"what is the point?". :asian: :asian:
Sean

 

[Littledragon]

Go take a look in your kitchen and count how many knives are in there. Times that by every houshold in the world, add the occasional hunting knife, box cutter, exacto knife, and razor blade. Then ask your self again,"what is the point?". :asian: :asian:
Sean

Meaning that the "bad guys" could use the knife as well as the martial art to hurt others?

Not sure if that was what you were trying to say, can you clear it up.

Thanks

Tarek

 

[nonono90]

LittleDragon,

You might want to get together with a few of your buddies that you train with and play around with some knives. **Important** do not use real knives, either use training blades or my personal favorite butter knife with duct tape over the blade. Work through some self defense progressions experimenting with different situations. Such as 1 on 1 with armed opponent, 1 on 3, groundfighting etc. Best way to see how to work with the knife. I'm glade my post expanded your understanding of the knife.

Might want to use eyeprotection if you start picking up the pace and intensity!

 

[Littledragon]

LittleDragon,

You might want to get together with a few of your buddies that you train with and play around with some knives. **Important** do not use real knives, either use training blades or my personal favorite butter knife with duct tape over the blade. Work through some self defense progressions experimenting with different situations. Such as 1 on 1 with armed opponent, 1 on 3, groundfighting etc. Best way to see how to work with the knife. I'm glade my post expanded your understanding of the knife.

Might want to use eyeprotection if you start picking up the pace and intensity!

Thats a great idea! I already teach knife self defense to my friends but have never fought knife to knife. Thank you for the suggestion.

Tarek

 

[Guro Harold]

Thats a great idea! I already teach knife self defense to my friends but have never fought knife to knife. Thank you for the suggestion.

Tarek

Even though I train in the knife arts, suppositely, there are not alot of knife on knife or stick on stick encounters.

nonono90 had some great safety info and scenarios.

The most realistic is that only one person is armed with the blade or the weapons are mixed-matched.

I think that Filipino martial arts and tactical combatives are one of the best curriculums of learning techniques for realistic self-defense with a knife.

Its great that you are always learning, keep it up!

Palusut

 

[Littledragon]

Even though I train in the knife arts, suppositely, there are not alot of knife on knife or stick on stick encounters.

nonono90 had some great safety info and scenarios.

The most realistic is that only one person is armed with the blade or the weapons are mixed-matched.

I think that Filipino martial arts and tactical combatives are one of the best curriculums of learning techniques for realistic self-defense with a knife.

Its great that you are always learning, keep it up!

Palusut

Thank you very much.

When posting, the members who posted to this thread make it sound like Kinfe martial arts also teaches how to take away a kinfe and defend against a knife as well as using one? Is that true?

If so do they show you how to disable someone with a knife using empty hands in otherwords with just your bare hands?

Thanks.

-No one can master the martial arts because we are all students-
Tarek :asian:

 

[Littledragon]

I also have another question, what are the knife arts called? Is there a specific name for them?

 

[Guro Harold]

I also have another question, what are the knife arts called? Is there a specific name for them?

Filipino Martial Arts and tactical combative curriculums are some of the programs that cover knife training.

 

[DoxN4cer]

I don't really know that much about knife martial arts but I was wondering what is the point of learning them? In a self defense situation or in a street fight are you always going to have a knife in handy? And if you just rely on the knife and if you encounter an experienced martial artist who takes it away how will you fight?

In a very respectfull manner since I want to learn more about this art and I don't know much about this, I really have not understood why you would learn this martial art?

Can someone explain the history of this art?
Thank you.

Tarek :asian:

The best way to learn to defend against a knife is to learn to fight with one.

Disarming... yes, it's possible. Consider this though; what happens to your had if you stick it in a blender? Trying to disarm a determined aggressor with a knife is a lot like that.

It is preferable to damage the limb that is weilding that weapon. Old-timers would aim to cut the thumb off of their opponents weapon hand. Now THAT's a disarm. The pre-cursor to CSSD Bio-Mechanical Cutting.

Tim Kashino

 

[Littledragon]

Thank you all for the great insight, I love this place because as a martial artist this site is our teacher.


Thanks

Tarek :asian:

 

[Littledragon]

Answering my question to if these knife arts has a name, I researched and found out that the one type of Phillippiean knife martial art is called sayoc kail correct?

Tarek

 

[arnisador]

Yes, it's known for its emphasis on the blade, but many other Filipino arts--I daresay the majority--teach it also.

 

[Littledragon]

Yes, it's known for its emphasis on the blade, but many other Filipino arts--I daresay the majority--teach it also.

Cool. Thanks for the info.

 

[KenpoTex]

Great thread...there have been some good posts! Here's my $0.02.
Why Train with a knife? Several reasons: 1. Because in the hands of someone who knows how to use one (or in the hands of a complete idiot), a knife is a devastating weapon. In my personal opinion, at close quarters (striking range or trapping range) the knife is probably the most dangerous weapon you can encounter. 2. Knives are one of the few weapons that can be carried almost anywhere. Granted, there are some places you can't carry one (airports, gov. buildings, etc.) and different states have different laws regarding type, action, and blade length, but for the most part you can find one (or two or three ) that you can carry. And like nonono90 said, they are just an extra tool in your S.D. toolbox.
On the subject of knife defenses I have four rules: 1. don't make someone mad enough to pull a knife on you. 2. If they do, run like hell. 3. If you can't run, shoot them ("never bring a knife to a gun fight"). 4. If you can't shoot them pull your own knife and hopefully kill them before they kill you. (and if you don't even have a knife, R.I.P. )

In a real life situation against a trained knife fighter, disarms by an unarmed person are very difficult. Atleast in my opinion and experience playing around with other and training knives.

I agree except that I would also say that in a "real life situation" against an untrained knife-fighter, disarms by a highly trained unarmed person would be difficult. Even if you succeed in disarming them, you are probably (if not definately) going to get cut in the process which brings us back to my first 4 rules for defense against an armed attacker (see above).
To be clear, I'm not dismissing knife training (I love it) or saying that defensive tecniques will never work ('cause it has happened), I'm just making the point that a knife is a very formidable weapon regardless of whether your attacker is highly trained or not.

 

[Littledragon]

Great thread...there have been some good posts! Here's my $0.02.
Why Train with a knife? Several reasons: 1. Because in the hands of someone who knows how to use one (or in the hands of a complete idiot), a knife is a devastating weapon. In my personal opinion, at close quarters (striking range or trapping range) the knife is probably the most dangerous weapon you can encounter. 2. Knives are one of the few weapons that can be carried almost anywhere. Granted, there are some places you can't carry one (airports, gov. buildings, etc.) and different states have different laws regarding type, action, and blade length, but for the most part you can find one (or two or three ) that you can carry. And like nonono90 said, they are just an extra tool in your S.D. toolbox.
On the subject of knife defenses I have four rules: 1. don't make someone mad enough to pull a knife on you. 2. If they do, run like hell. 3. If you can't run, shoot them ("never bring a knife to a gun fight"). 4. If you can't shoot them pull your own knife and hopefully kill them before they kill you. (and if you don't even have a knife, R.I.P. )
I agree except that I would also say that in a "real life situation" against an untrained knife-fighter, disarms by a highly trained unarmed person would be difficult. Even if you succeed in disarming them, you are probably (if not definately) going to get cut in the process which brings us back to my first 4 rules for defense against an armed attacker (see above).
To be clear, I'm not dismissing knife training (I love it) or saying that defensive tecniques will never work ('cause it has happened), I'm just making the point that a knife is a very formidable weapon regardless of whether your attacker is highly trained or not.

Some good info thank you all for posting and me being able to absorb what is usefull. I learn something new about martial arts here everyday.

Respectfully,
Tarek

 

[shesulsa]

I would have to agree that the way most empty-hand-against-knife- defense techniques I've learned are much like how we learn joint locks in the beginning. Your partner is standing near you statically and jabs a knife your way in a thrusting manner or steps in for an over head, downward strike.

When someone goes for a weapon, even if they are not experienced, 99.9% of them are COMMITTED to using deadly or injuring force, so this is going to happen FAST. If you happen to fight an experienced knife fighter, he is going to retract the weapon so quickly you'd likely be more seriuosly hurt by trying to disarm him/her...then they can follow up while you're holding your bleeding flesh and howling with the unexpected pain.

About half of all elementary school kids I know and about 80% of all junior high/middle school kids I know have seen someone at school carrying a knife. It's a very popular and deadly weapon.

As for carrying it anywhere, I'm a woman and have heard of other women clipping knifes to the underwire section of their bras and making it through airport security (though I've never tried this). I keep several clipped to my underthings at all times. I've been known to sleep that way.

I understand your questioning this. I used to abhore trying to train with knives and guns, thinking it diluted the arts. However, arts have evolved with time - always, actually - and I no longer think it inappropriate to train with as many different kinds of weapons as possible.

Take a good look inside your sister's or girlfriend's purse and see what you can find in there to be used as a weapon. Here's some examples - credit card, comb, metal writing pen (great for jabbing, pressure point application in joint locks), perfume spray (ever get any in your eyes? OUCH!)...just about anything that is not a weapon can be used as one much like a knife.

In the Korean style I study, defense against knives is part of the curriculum.

 

[shesulsa]

Also, familiarization is important with any weapon you decide to add to your arsenal be it knife, gun, nunchaku, stick, etcetera.

If you are taking martial arts for self-defense purposes (in it to win it), I think it's important to understand what the bad guy (or other guy) has and how to use it if you manage to get it away from them.

Good luck and HWARANG!!