What would we do if the lights went out?

[Transk53]

The issue isn't how the cells are locked, rather it is a matter of feeding the inmate population. The food that needs to be cooked can't be unless they have a non-electrical source. Secondly the food stock needs to be resupplied at some point in the VERY near future, depending on the size of the facility. And we need to consider the staff that is on hand at the time of an event. What if relief shifts aren't forthcoming due to being unable to travel due to conditions? At some point the 'system' breaks down. What do you do? Leave them in the cells to die? Release them on an already panicked public? No good choices.

Especially if you have the scnario like in the Christian Bale Batman movie were the avarage prisioner was a nut job. I would imagine a good few public would make like an ostrich and not even entertain the idea. Pretend it is not there until seen type of thing. I guess the moral thing to do with a prison full of nonces, rapists and murderers would be to pump the prison full of sleeping gas in the event of a cataclysmic event.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The issue isn't how the cells are locked, rather it is a matter of feeding the inmate population. The food that needs to be cooked can't be unless they have a non-electrical source. Secondly the food stock needs to be resupplied at some point in the VERY near future, depending on the size of the facility. And we need to consider the staff that is on hand at the time of an event. What if relief shifts aren't forthcoming due to being unable to travel due to conditions? At some point the 'system' breaks down. What do you do? Leave them in the cells to die? Release them on an already panicked public? No good choices.

Many cook with gas. Can't talk for all states but here there is a rather large stock pile and they eat better than most of the general public. Besides, where is the logic, based on your previous post, that makes it better to release a lot of violent felons that you can't feed, into a world that can't find food. And I am also fairly certain there are more than 2 options.

And we can go back and forth with this until doomsday and I am pretty sure you will not convince me that what you are claiming will happen, would actually happen and I doubt I will be able to change your mind to my side of it either

 

[oftheherd1]

Not true. Ventilators have backup batteries, for one thing. Hospitals (and dialysis centers) have backup generators.

If there's some sort of generalized disaster, they don't need to travel. They can walk 5 feet and deal with what's right there, instead of driving across town.
And of course, most people can manage just fine without traffic lights.

Locks that require power to remain locked are a stupid idea and cost a lot more than locks that only require power to unlock, or that require power only to change state. Can you provide us with a source that supports the allegation that jails (the ones not using mechanical keys...) are using the less secure and more expensive option?

Ventilators have backup for sure. I don't know how long they last or what your supply of them is, but in the initial scenario, electricity isn't likely to come back soon. We had that happen a few years ago due to a very large snow fall. Something you are more prepared for where you are. But here, snow and ice knocked out power which didn't come back for about 3 days. Gas stations couldn't sell gas without electricity. Didn't matter, but they couldn't be resupplied for a while either due to the roads being blocked. Luckily houses stay warmer that one might think without heating, so we just dressed warmer and put on extra blankets at night.

I agree with your statement on many injured coming to the hospitals. But will you not want to reach out further if you can? As I am sure you know, during mass casualties, all bets on standards of care disappear, but you would still like to get as many as possible to the hospital for whatever treatments you can provide.

And as an aside on not needing traffic lights, I totally agree! At least that is the way it is where I live, even when we have them.

As to locks, I agree that from the standpoint of security, you don't want locks that failsafe open. But it might be interesting to check with your safety officer and see what the law is in Colorado on prisoners being able to save themselves in a disaster, and let us know. I don't expect most prisons would like the general public to know which they use.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ventilators have backup for sure. I don't know how long they last or what your supply of them is, but in the initial scenario, electricity isn't likely to come back soon. We had that happen a few years ago due to a very large snow fall. Something you are more prepared for where you are. But here, snow and ice knocked out power which didn't come back for about 3 days. Gas stations couldn't sell gas without electricity. Didn't matter, but they couldn't be resupplied for a while either due to the roads being blocked. Luckily houses stay warmer that one might think without heating, so we just dressed warmer and put on extra blankets at night.

I agree with your statement on many injured coming to the hospitals. But will you not want to reach out further if you can? As I am sure you know, during mass casualties, all bets on standards of care disappear, but you would still like to get as many as possible to the hospital for whatever treatments you can provide.

And as an aside on not needing traffic lights, I totally agree! At least that is the way it is where I live, even when we have them.

As to locks, I agree that from the standpoint of security, you don't want locks that failsafe open. But it might be interesting to check with your safety officer and see what the law is in Colorado on prisoners being able to save themselves in a disaster, and let us know. I don't expect most prisons would like the general public to know which they use.

The point was that life support was used to support the claim that people would "die in the first minute" which is simply untrue.




Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[oftheherd1]

The point was that life support was used to support the claim that people would "die in the first minute" which is simply untrue.




Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

Ah, I missed that, no that wouldn't cause deaths in the first minute. Sorry.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Many cook with gas.

Sure. But if the gas supply can't be resupplied you have an issue.

Can't talk for all states but here there is a rather large stock pile and they eat better than most of the general public.

What large stockpile is this? I've been with a large Sheriff's Office for 24 years now. Most S.O.'s have three main Bureaus which are patrol, courts and jail. I've experience with all three. Our jail (5th largest in the state and larger than most prisons) has less than a week of food for the inmate population and is resupplied on a daily basis in one form or another. Some will have emergency rations, but again that doesn't last that long.

And none of that touches on staff shortages, which is a major issue.

Besides, where is the logic, based on your previous post, that makes it better to release a lot of violent felons that you can't feed, into a world that can't find food.

Didn't say it was 'better'. I said there were two options based upon a scenario where food can't be resupplied and there are major staff shortages: let them die or release them.

And I am also fairly certain there are more than 2 options

Okay, what's your additional options?

And we can go back and forth with this until doomsday and I am pretty sure you will not convince me that what you are claiming will happen, would actually happen...

Not convince you a grid down situation could happen? It already has, multiple times. Have we had physical attacks on power stations? Yes. Has the power grid been cyber attacked? Multiple times. Does the NSA maintain that China can shut the grid down? Yes they have. Can a 'Carrington' event trash our grid? It caused quite a mess in the past and that was before the 'grid' was as large as it is today. Does a nuclear detonation cause an EMP? Of course it does. Are there nuclear weapons unaccounted for in the world? Yes, an alarming number. Can a terrorist organization get there hands on one? Be naive to believe they can't...if they haven't already.

So 'grid down' events have already happened, multiple times of varying scales of severity. The very real possibility exists, according to our own government, that these things can/will happen again and on a larger scale.

Basically, I live in Florida so I prepare for the possibility of a hurricane since they exist and have happened before. I also prepare for a grid down event, be it local, regional or national since it has happened and can happen again and on an even larger scale. Doesn't mean sitting in a bunker on top of a pile of ammo. It means being properly prepared, to a realistic and rationale extent for if it happens

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The point was that life support was used to support the claim that people would "die in the first minute" which is simply untrue.

Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

Depends upon the cause. A storm that knocks out power for a day and you're okay. A Carrington event and you're not okay. A back up generator is fine as long as it works and it has fuel. Take away those two requirements and my statement is true.

And on a side note, many of the components for our grid are no longer made here in the U.S., they are now made in China.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Depends upon the cause. A storm that knocks out power for a day and you're okay. A Carrington event and you're not okay. A back up generator is fine as long as it works and it has fuel. Take away those two requirements and my statement is true.

And on a side note, many of the components for our grid are no longer made here in the U.S., they are now made in China.

So your statement is true, but not in the real world.
Got it.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not convince you a grid down situation could happen? It already has, multiple times. Have we had physical attacks on power stations? Yes. Has the power grid been cyber attacked? Multiple times. Does the NSA maintain that China can shut the grid down? Yes they have. Can a 'Carrington' event trash our grid? It caused quite a mess in the past and that was before the 'grid' was as large as it is today. Does a nuclear detonation cause an EMP? Of course it does. Are there nuclear weapons unaccounted for in the world? Yes, an alarming number. Can a terrorist organization get there hands on one? Be naive to believe they can't...if they haven't already.

So 'grid down' events have already happened, multiple times of varying scales of severity. The very real possibility exists, according to our own government, that these things can/will happen again and on a larger scale.

Basically, I live in Florida so I prepare for the possibility of a hurricane since they exist and have happened before. I also prepare for a grid down event, be it local, regional or national since it has happened and can happen again and on an even larger scale. Doesn't mean sitting in a bunker on top of a pile of ammo. It means being properly prepared, to a realistic and rationale extent for if it happens

I know the grid has gone down, did all you predict happen......

Focus on what I am saying and please do not try and redirect to sound right. I do not agree with your doom and gloom scenario that you put forth for when the grid goes down. And to clarify, for the last time, I seriously doubt anything I say will change your POV on this and I know nothing you will say will change mine so this is pointless.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So your statement is true, but not in the real world.
Got it.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

Hmmm, so the Carrington event didn't happen in the real world? So the NSA director didn't make his comments about China in the real world? So we've never been cyber attacked in the real world? So an EMP can't happen in the real world. Our grid hasn't been physically attacked in the real world?

My question is what color is the sky in your 'real' world?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I know the grid has gone down, did all you predict happen......

That 'I' predict? Just going by the research provided and the concerns of elements of the government involved with these sorts of things.

And if your mind can't be changed, why clutter the thread? Leave the thread for those with an actual interest.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The thread is interesting, I am just not interested what you are saying, and you are not the post so..... I am however interested in a logical/professional discussion on the topic not doom and gloom based on some internet research with a dash of extremism thrown in. I worked in hospital and I worked for government offices and was involved in disaster recovery and some emergency management and such....you have a nice day

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The thread is interesting, I am just not interested what you are saying, and you are not the post so..... I am however interested in a logical/professional discussion on the topic not doom and gloom based on some internet research with a dash of extremism thrown in. I worked in hospital and I worked for government offices and was involved in disaster recovery and some emergency management and such....you have a nice day

Well I'm glad you find the thread interesting. You don't have to be interested in my viewpoint on the topic, however, I'm not passing on 'internet research'. Apparently you haven't looked at the material in the OP. Unless you're saying the NSA director is passing on 'internet research' or the other government officials are passing along 'internet research'? I've also worked in hospitals and I currently work for government (county but it has been federal) and I deal with disaster and emergency preparedness on a daily basis. If you don't wish to believe that things that have happened on a local/regional scale can happen on a national scale that is your prerogative.

I prefer to accept that if it's happened before it can happen again, and if it's happened on a regional basis then it could happen on a national basis. That is after researching those in the industry as well as government officials associate with the topic. And I prefer to be as prepared as is realistically and sensibly possible in the advent that it occurs.

And you also have a nice day. And a safe one as well.

 

[ChrisN]

Knowing a chap who makes jerked meat
I know how too, and have skinned dear, took off all the meat and cure the skin. I will say if you can do that to a dear most animals can be done.
Have basic bush craft skills. Easy enough making a fire with really basic stuff Have an good idea of what’s edible and what’s not. I’m good enough with a bow and traps to take down game. Have very good first aid skills and the wife is ex-military.

Just looking after myself and mine, I think I would be ok.

The real question is would I be able to handle the real threat? I think the real threat is from other people? The best way to stay safe is to be in a group. But the more people the bigger the possible threat to you and so on..

 

[Dirty Dog]

Hmmm, so the Carrington event didn't happen in the real world? So the NSA director didn't make his comments about China in the real world? So we've never been cyber attacked in the real world? So an EMP can't happen in the real world. Our grid hasn't been physically attacked in the real world?

My question is what color is the sky in your 'real' world?

Its blue, of course.
That's why, in my world, your statements are nonsense.
Because despite your End Of The World fears, none of the things you claim happened.
People on life support didn't die, despite your claims.
Traffic lights failing didn't immobilize the world, despite your claims.
Prisons neither killed not released their inmates, despite your claims.

You then tried to backpedal and claim that your statement was true 'if you didn't have batteries and generators' which is silly since in the real world, we DO have those things.

Feel free to huddle in your Secret Underground Lair with 10 years of MREs.

I'll stay out here in the sunshine and ask the nice server to bring me something from the bar. And maybe a nice grilled steak.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[drop bear]

Okay, what's your additional options?

If I was a criminal and I wasn't evacuated I would sue.

 

[drop bear]

And then I thought to myself. This has to have actually happened somewhere.

Power outage at Mississippi federal prison - The Washington Post

 

[Transk53]

That 'I' predict? Just going by the research provided and the concerns of elements of the government involved with these sorts of things.

And if your mind can't be changed, why clutter the thread? Leave the thread for those with an actual interest.

If this is true and not just scare mongering. Then again, would probably just happen.

The electric power utilities involve 5,800 major power plants and 450,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines, monitored and controlled by a staggering mix of devices installed over decades — all of which would be vulnerable to an EMP attack.

There has also been startling expert testimony that North Korea (some say in collusion with and/or has shared with Iran) has been working on a Super-EMP Weapon, where it was said “In fact, almost certainly, North Korea now possesses a highly advanced third generation nuclear warhead that could destroy the United States with a single blow.” North Korea has already tested low-yield nuclear weapons, which is one of the signatures of a Super-EMP weapon — a very low explosive yield, just several kilotons because the weapon is converting the energy of the nuclear warhead into gamma rays.

 

[Transk53]

And then I thought to myself. This has to have actually happened somewhere.

Power outage at Mississippi federal prison - The Washington Post

Sure there was one on the news more recent than that.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Its blue, of course.
That's why, in my world, your statements are nonsense.

You obviously haven't done much research and instead go your usual route of being a sarcastic **** with those you disagree with. Odd, since you're suppose to be a moderator on a friendly discussion board.

Because despite your End Of The World fears, none of the things you claim happened.

I don't have end of the world fears, and never mentioned that I did. Again, this is sarcastic idiocy on your part and inserting something into the conversation that was never there to cover your lack of civility. And you may want to do something called research. Specifically what happened in India when 100 million people lost there power a few years back. Specifically what officials in our government project will happen if such an event happens here. Specifically the docudrama Nat Geo did a couple of years ago in a scenario lasting only 10 days. The death toll was millions in just 10 days. This isn't 'my' predictions, I'm merely discussing what those involved in the topic have projected due to what has happened here in the U.S. in the past, what has happened in other countries recently and the capabilities that exist in the modern world that can adversely affect our power grid.

You then tried to backpedal and claim that your statement was true 'if you didn't have batteries and generators' which is silly since in the real world, we DO have those things.

You're not clearly understanding what I'm discussing. And EMP, natural or man-made will knock out batteries and generators. That is a fact. It's not silly, it's physics. It has happened in the past already and that is not silly, it's history. And it is a serious concern to officials in our government and with good reason. Secondly, if the grid is effected by an event that is non-EMP related then you will have batteries and back up generators. However they are dependent on a fuel source to stay operational. Take away that fuel source and they don't work. Surely you must understand this? If the grid is down the infrastructure will also be compromised. This affects resupply of fuel sources.

Feel free to huddle in your Secret Underground Lair with 10 years of MREs.

Again this is just your being a sarcastic ****. I suggest you abide by the 'friendly' code of the board or give up being a moderator. It's very hypocritical of you to be a moderator and then quip with this sort of idiocy to those you disagree with. Or, if you are unable to converse like an adult then excuse yourself from the thread.

Btw, I don't have a secret underground lair...that's Batman. And MRE's don't have a 10 year shelf life.