What will the Martial Arts be 50 years from now?

[lklawson]

The Martial Art's have certainly evolved more in the previous 50 years than ever before.

Says you.

This post reminds me of the Victorians who were convinced that everything they did was the apex of human development and everything which came before was flawed, incomplete, and faulty; they could learn nothing from the past.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Buka]

Says you.

This post reminds me of the Victorians who were convinced that everything they did was the apex of human development and everything which came before was flawed, incomplete, and faulty; they could learn nothing from the past.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I don't consider it in a Victorian sense, like an apex of anything. But I think in a lot of ways it has evolved over the last fifty years more than ever before.

 

[lklawson]

I don't consider it in a Victorian sense, like an apex of anything. But I think in a lot of ways it has evolved over the last fifty years more than ever before.

There have been numerous (countless) periods of radical shift and rapid change ("change" does not always equal "development") in the expression of martial arts over the centuries.

Any time there is a cultural or technological change, it hammers smack into martial arts like the hammer of Thor.

As one, tiny, example, my friends who study the period tell me that there was a radical shift in the expression of Native American Martial Arts when the Europeans introduced steel trade goods, particularly axes and knives, to what had been essentially a stone-age culture. Want to take book on whether or not introduction of steel weapons caused a greater "evolution" of martial arts than we have seen in "the last 50 years?" And that's without considering the horse in our equation.

The introduction of Roman military tactics and the effects it had on the Greek Phalanx, is another example. Or the application of Philip of Macedon and then of Alexander the Great's military tactics. Or the effects that Hannibal's War Elephants had.

The introduction of the Mine Ball created a nearly unprecedented shift.

Various legal and cultural changes create amazing shifts in the expression of martial arts as well. The Dueling culture dramatically shifted, and with it the martial arts around it, with changes in social norms associated with the practice, an in the span of a life time.

The diligent work of the Marquess of Queensberry is often thought to be the backbone of a dramatic and fundamental shift in English boxing, both leading to its eventual decriminalization in England (yes, it was, in fact, illegal despite its popularity) and the complete and utter redaction of throws, locks, and even chokes & pressure point attacks.

Or, because I mentioned the Hammer of Thor, the Norse attacks on England and Europe caused a radical shift in the martial arts there (as well as the hiring of Norse mercenaries) because the weapons and armor, as well as the average size, of the Norsemen was very different.

The change of iron and steel making technologies which allowed better European armor to be produced changed the type of swords, spears, and bludgeons along with changing techniques, tactics, and strategies.

And what are we suggesting that the current half-century period of change is based on? The re-acceptance into society of MMA & BJJ maybe? As compared to Up And Down Fighting? Or Kosen? Or Irish Faction Fights at the fair? Or are we basing it on the introduction of Asian Martial Arts to Europeans? Barton-Wright did that back in 1899 and made such a big splash that Conan Doyle wrote it into the Sherlock Holmes mythos.

No, I contest most strongly the claim that "Martial Art's have certainly evolved more in the previous 50 years than ever before." Horseshit. It is the basest of egotism to believe that the changes we have seen are anything special. It's merely the latest round.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I don't think there's a chance of that. God, I hope not. People are just too different in the Martial World.

And imagine if that happened, somebody would have to be the Grand Poobah. Good God, he'd probably make himself a 20th degree Black Belt.

Lets just say, purely hypothetical mind you, that this does happen. What would a hypothetical martial arts practitioner with experience in a couple different styles, theoretically, have to do to become the grand poobah of the world unified martial arts? And could he possibly become a 25th dan?

Im asking for a friend, that is in no way me, and only wants to know out of curiosity, with no plans of becoming said grand poobah.

 

[Buka]

There have been numerous (countless) periods of radical shift and rapid change ("change" does not always equal "development") in the expression of martial arts over the centuries.

Any time there is a cultural or technological change, it hammers smack into martial arts like the hammer of Thor.

As one, tiny, example, my friends who study the period tell me that there was a radical shift in the expression of Native American Martial Arts when the Europeans introduced steel trade goods, particularly axes and knives, to what had been essentially a stone-age culture. Want to take book on whether or not introduction of steel weapons caused a greater "evolution" of martial arts than we have seen in "the last 50 years?" And that's without considering the horse in our equation.

The introduction of Roman military tactics and the effects it had on the Greek Phalanx, is another example. Or the application of Philip of Macedon and then of Alexander the Great's military tactics. Or the effects that Hannibal's War Elephants had.

The introduction of the Mine Ball created a nearly unprecedented shift.

Various legal and cultural changes create amazing shifts in the expression of martial arts as well. The Dueling culture dramatically shifted, and with it the martial arts around it, with changes in social norms associated with the practice, an in the span of a life time.

The diligent work of the Marquess of Queensberry is often thought to be the backbone of a dramatic and fundamental shift in English boxing, both leading to its eventual decriminalization in England (yes, it was, in fact, illegal despite its popularity) and the complete and utter redaction of throws, locks, and even chokes & pressure point attacks.

Or, because I mentioned the Hammer of Thor, the Norse attacks on England and Europe caused a radical shift in the martial arts there (as well as the hiring of Norse mercenaries) because the weapons and armor, as well as the average size, of the Norsemen was very different.

The change of iron and steel making technologies which allowed better European armor to be produced changed the type of swords, spears, and bludgeons along with changing techniques, tactics, and strategies.

And what are we suggesting that the current half-century period of change is based on? The re-acceptance into society of MMA & BJJ maybe? As compared to Up And Down Fighting? Or Kosen? Or Irish Faction Fights at the fair? Or are we basing it on the introduction of Asian Martial Arts to Europeans? Barton-Wright did that back in 1899 and made such a big splash that Conan Doyle wrote it into the Sherlock Holmes mythos.

No, I contest most strongly the claim that "Martial Art's have certainly evolved more in the previous 50 years than ever before." Horseshit. It is the basest of egotism to believe that the changes we have seen are anything special. It's merely the latest round.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I completely agree with everything you said in that post. I don't even have to look anything up historically, because I know you know your stuff, heck, I read your books.

But everything you said actually makes my case in many ways. But, alas, I am off to work in a few minutes, but will get back to this later.

 

[dvcochran]

Says you.

This post reminds me of the Victorians who were convinced that everything they did was the apex of human development and everything which came before was flawed, incomplete, and faulty; they could learn nothing from the past.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Hmm. I did not imply that at all. I simply asked the question "where do you see MA going"? Not all but most MA's have noticeably changed in the last 50 years. Probably more so in the last 20 years. I never implied in any way that today's practice was the pinnacle of the MA. I feel certain we past the "Golden Age" about 20-30 years ago.

 

[dvcochran]

There have been numerous (countless) periods of radical shift and rapid change ("change" does not always equal "development") in the expression of martial arts over the centuries.

Any time there is a cultural or technological change, it hammers smack into martial arts like the hammer of Thor.

As one, tiny, example, my friends who study the period tell me that there was a radical shift in the expression of Native American Martial Arts when the Europeans introduced steel trade goods, particularly axes and knives, to what had been essentially a stone-age culture. Want to take book on whether or not introduction of steel weapons caused a greater "evolution" of martial arts than we have seen in "the last 50 years?" And that's without considering the horse in our equation.

The introduction of Roman military tactics and the effects it had on the Greek Phalanx, is another example. Or the application of Philip of Macedon and then of Alexander the Great's military tactics. Or the effects that Hannibal's War Elephants had.

The introduction of the Mine Ball created a nearly unprecedented shift.

Various legal and cultural changes create amazing shifts in the expression of martial arts as well. The Dueling culture dramatically shifted, and with it the martial arts around it, with changes in social norms associated with the practice, an in the span of a life time.

The diligent work of the Marquess of Queensberry is often thought to be the backbone of a dramatic and fundamental shift in English boxing, both leading to its eventual decriminalization in England (yes, it was, in fact, illegal despite its popularity) and the complete and utter redaction of throws, locks, and even chokes & pressure point attacks.

Or, because I mentioned the Hammer of Thor, the Norse attacks on England and Europe caused a radical shift in the martial arts there (as well as the hiring of Norse mercenaries) because the weapons and armor, as well as the average size, of the Norsemen was very different.

The change of iron and steel making technologies which allowed better European armor to be produced changed the type of swords, spears, and bludgeons along with changing techniques, tactics, and strategies.

And what are we suggesting that the current half-century period of change is based on? The re-acceptance into society of MMA & BJJ maybe? As compared to Up And Down Fighting? Or Kosen? Or Irish Faction Fights at the fair? Or are we basing it on the introduction of Asian Martial Arts to Europeans? Barton-Wright did that back in 1899 and made such a big splash that Conan Doyle wrote it into the Sherlock Holmes mythos.

No, I contest most strongly the claim that "Martial Art's have certainly evolved more in the previous 50 years than ever before." Horseshit. It is the basest of egotism to believe that the changes we have seen are anything special. It's merely the latest round.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Your historical knowledge is impressive and I defer it. My questions do not go back nearly as far as your history. It is simply a question to invoke thought on the future of something we all love very much.
I will not be around in 50 years so I could say the question is irrelevant to me. But I am passionate about MA now so it is a pertinent question. Will anyone's answers change what I do in my MA practice? Probably not. I do not subscribe to "bandwagon theology". Should we ignore the relevance of systems like MMA or BJJ? No. That would be foolish. They have a ton of merit and value. If for no other reason that they have given MA a shot in the arm over the last two decades keeping it relevant in the mainstream. That cannot be all bad.

 

[TaiChiTJ]

At the end of three months, you log on and take an accounting of your permission status. State and local law enforcement agencies have been notified, the national clearinghouse for all martial training has reviewed your application and received your application fees. Medical records proving that blood flow to all portions of your brain are normal, supporting the assertion that you have not exhibited sociopathic or psychopathic behavior, and these records have been given to the three counselors assigned to you. The government mandated number of friends and acquaintances have been contacted to discuss all things you have said to them since they knew you. You have received government documents discussing incarceration time and any changes that may be made to your rights and privileges if your martial skills are proven to have been used in any criminal activity. All your social media activity has been reviewed.

The big day finally arrives. You hear the UPS truck outside your front door. The one large cardboard box is placed at your front door. You lift the heavy box and begin opening it, removing parts of the new martial arts robot, the Wonder-Bot. Your financial status is such that you could only afford the economy model, with one terabyte of memory. One terabyte is one trillion and those one trillion bytes can only hold the combined knowledge base of one martial art. Using specially constructed suits with continually broadcasting electronic pads attached throughout the entire suit, motion capture (mo-cap for short) suits collected the combined movement patterns of hundreds of master practitioners and this data was carefully programmed into the robots AI operating system. You chose Tae Kwon Do because you had heard of it before.

You turn the unit on from your computer keyboard and decide you would like to do a 30 second sparring session. You have received a verbal command that can be used to instantly stop the unit when needed.

You square off with the Wonder-Bot and throw the strongest right punch you can muster. The Wonder-Bot steps aside and slightly behind you and drives its index finger into a point on your scapula. This instantly paralyzes your entire right arm. Then it gets you into a choke hold. You say the word to stop the unit. Nothing happens, it still has you in the choke, cutting off most of your air supply. Just before you are about to faint, your Airedale terrier, Duke, runs into the room and happily jumps up in front of the both of you. The robot drops its hold and shuts itself off.

On the phone with a lady in India, the company’s sales representative apologizes. It seems the Wonder-Bot was sent with an old version of the operating system and the knowledge base of an expert in pressure point martial arts. She offers a discount on a memory upgrade, only $12,596 for a three-terabyte model. You turn the offer down and ask her why the dog shut it off. She explained the economy model gets confused when there are multiple things moving close to it.

You put the Wonder-Bot in the corner and feed and pet your dog.

 

[Flying Crane]

Lets just say, purely hypothetical mind you, that this does happen. What would a hypothetical martial arts practitioner with experience in a couple different styles, theoretically, have to do to become the grand poobah of the world unified martial arts? And could he possibly become a 25th dan?

Im asking for a friend, that is in no way me, and only wants to know out of curiosity, with no plans of becoming said grand poobah.

Clearly the fellow would need to be me.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Interesting question. I am from the Toyama Kanken line and he didn't believe in styles. He believed in improvement, and that which works.

I believe all arts change, some good, some bad. We live in an age of thinkers and as always, thinkers tend to understand that change is necessary.

 

[Flying Crane]

At the end of three months, you log on and take an accounting of your permission status. State and local law enforcement agencies have been notified, the national clearinghouse for all martial training has reviewed your application and received your application fees. Medical records proving that blood flow to all portions of your brain are normal, supporting the assertion that you have not exhibited sociopathic or psychopathic behavior, and these records have been given to the three counselors assigned to you. The government mandated number of friends and acquaintances have been contacted to discuss all things you have said to them since they knew you. You have received government documents discussing incarceration time and any changes that may be made to your rights and privileges if your martial skills are proven to have been used in any criminal activity. All your social media activity has been reviewed.

The big day finally arrives. You hear the UPS truck outside your front door. The one large cardboard box is placed at your front door. You lift the heavy box and begin opening it, removing parts of the new martial arts robot, the Wonder-Bot. Your financial status is such that you could only afford the economy model, with one terabyte of memory. One terabyte is one trillion and those one trillion bytes can only hold the combined knowledge base of one martial art. Using specially constructed suits with continually broadcasting electronic pads attached throughout the entire suit, motion capture (mo-cap for short) suits collected the combined movement patterns of hundreds of master practitioners and this data was carefully programmed into the robots AI operating system. You chose Tae Kwon Do because you had heard of it before.

You turn the unit on from your computer keyboard and decide you would like to do a 30 second sparring session. You have received a verbal command that can be used to instantly stop the unit when needed.

You square off with the Wonder-Bot and throw the strongest right punch you can muster. The Wonder-Bot steps aside and slightly behind you and drives its index finger into a point on your scapula. This instantly paralyzes your entire right arm. Then it gets you into a choke hold. You say the word to stop the unit. Nothing happens, it still has you in the choke, cutting off most of your air supply. Just before you are about to faint, your Airedale terrier, Duke, runs into the room and happily jumps up in front of the both of you. The robot drops its hold and shuts itself off.

On the phone with a lady in India, the company’s sales representative apologizes. It seems the Wonder-Bot was sent with an old version of the operating system and the knowledge base of an expert in pressure point martial arts. She offers a discount on a memory upgrade, only $12,596 for a three-terabyte model. You turn the offer down and ask her why the dog shut it off. She explained the economy model gets confused when there are multiple things moving close to it.

You put the Wonder-Bot in the corner and feed and pet your dog.

Or you are walking In the desert and you see a turtle...you do know what a turtle is, don’t you? The turtle is on its back, baking in the sun. You aren’t helping it. Why is that ??!!

 

[Buka]

Or you are walking In the desert and you see a turtle...

The turtle’s name is Touché. But that horse?The horse has no name. I wonder what he’s doing there?

 

[MetalBoar]

Or you are walking In the desert and you see a turtle...you do know what a turtle is, don’t you? The turtle is on its back, baking in the sun. You aren’t helping it. Why is that ??!!

Actually, I think it was a tortoise... The big question though is what are the good things you think of when I ask you about your mother?

 

[Bruce7]

IMO the best change for MA was Bruce Lee.
IMO the worse change was belts for dollars.
The future needs another Bruce Lee.
I fear there is no way to stop belts for dollars.

 

[RTKDCMB]

There might be new forms of MMA; Moon Martial Arts, Martian Martial Arts.

 

[jobo]

IMO the best change for MA was Bruce Lee.
IMO the worse change was belts for dollars.
The future needs another Bruce Lee.
I fear there is no way to stop belts for dollars.

I'm not sure that Bruce Lee, was a change for the better, he moved martasil arts in to the main stream, but none of those ma were changed for the better, that rise in popularity gave rise to the belts for $ thing,

 

[RTKDCMB]

Or you are walking In the desert and you see a turtle...you do know what a turtle is, don’t you? The turtle is on its back, baking in the sun. You aren’t helping it. Why is that ??!!

Is it Leonardo? Donatello? Michelangelo? Rafael?

 

[jobo]

There might be new forms of MMA; Moon Martial Arts, Martian Martial Arts.

moron martial arts perhaps ?

 

[Bruce7]

IMO the best change for MA was Bruce Lee.
IMO the worse change was belts for dollars.
The future needs another Bruce Lee.
I fear there is no way to stop belts for dollars.

jobo
I'm not sure that Bruce Lee, was a change for the better, he moved martasil arts in to the main stream, but none of those ma were changed for the better, that rise in popularity gave rise to the belts for $ thing,

I disagree. His use of different MA open our eyes to new possibilities.
Buka can tell you who started the belts for money.

 

[jobo]

IMO the best change for MA was Bruce Lee.
IMO the worse change was belts for dollars.
The future needs another Bruce Lee.
I fear there is no way to stop belts for dollars.

jobo
I'm not sure that Bruce Lee, was a change for the better, he moved martasil arts in to the main stream, but none of those ma were changed for the better, that rise in popularity gave rise to the belts for $ thing,

I disagree. His use of different MA open our eyes to new possibilities.
Buka can tell you who started the belts for money.

it may have opened eyes, but it doesn't seem to have made a great deal of improvement to existing arts who are stuck to the main part stuck in the 1920s or a 100 years earlier.

$ belts for money only works if you have a larger population of people who are will to pay for a belt, the popularity created by Bruce, made that a commercially viable business plan, even if it wasn't his idea or intent, very low quality ma school appeared over night in the uk, in there's many thousands to exploit culpable people who had seen I Bruce film