Soft vs Hard Martial Arts Discussion

[K-man]

I think most systems use hard and soft. In an earlier post I said I would mention Krav later. What I was going to say was, I spent the weekend at a superb Krav 3 day seminar. We were all belted, kneed, battered, bruised and sore. We had several multiple attacker sessions. I can attest, when you have fourteen attackers in a circle taking turns to attack you with sticks, guns, knives, rifles or fists, 'soft' goes out the window when the adrenaline hits and fatigue starts to cut in. We were all resorting to gross motor skills and they were quite effective. Unfortunately precision is not an exact science and many of us were gratefull that we were wearing cups.

 

[DaveManyNames]

I'm not hugely convinced that martial arts are just for "combat" anyway. people use tai chi for relaxation and health, or kickboxing style fitness classes. are these people any less martial artists than someone who is geared towards combat?
..
combat is a pretty broad term in of itself. combat can be front lines of a war zone up to restraining drunk and annoyed friends at a party, both of which have martial arts made for them, but are vastly different techniques for both. in my opinion there are no "better" martial arts, only martial arts with different goals and approaches. if you want a ***-kicking gum-chewing striking style, then go do that. if you want softer, more fluid style, do that instead. neither are "better", because there is no objective way to measure "betterness"

 

[K-man]

I'm not hugely convinced that martial arts are just for "combat" anyway. people use tai chi for relaxation and health, or kickboxing style fitness classes. are these people any less martial artists than someone who is geared towards combat?

Short answer ... yes!
:asian:

 

[Flying Crane]

people use tai chi for relaxation and health, or kickboxing style fitness classes. are these people any less martial artists than someone who is geared towards combat?

This kind of thing is a more modern development. Yes, the practice of martial arts was probably always associated with health and fitness. However, the health and fitness was always an added side benefit. They were originally intended to be methods of fighting, and that included taiji.

 

[Cyriacus]

Learning Martial Arts for fitness equals:

A Martial Art is first and foremost a Martial Art.
A Gym does fitness and strength.
You learn a Martial Art, and you develop skill in said Martial Art. As a fringe benefit, you gain fitness.
You join a Gym, and you gain fitness.

If you wanted to get some mechanical defect in your car fixed, i dont see why youd go to a bike repair shop.

 

[clfsean]

This kind of thing is a more modern development. Yes, the practice of martial arts was probably always associated with health and fitness. However, the health and fitness was always an added side benefit. They were originally intended to be methods of fighting, and that included taiji.

When in doubt... kuhp / pao / chyuhn ...

 

[Flying Crane]

Learning Martial Arts for fitness equals:

A Martial Art is first and foremost a Martial Art.
A Gym does fitness and strength.
You learn a Martial Art, and you develop skill in said Martial Art. As a fringe benefit, you gain fitness.
You join a Gym, and you gain fitness.

If you wanted to get some mechanical defect in your car fixed, i dont see why youd go to a bike repair shop.

Farming is the same way. Farming includes a lot of hard, physical labor. That makes you strong and fit. Lots of time outdoors, keeps you healthy. But what's the real purpose of farming? To grow food, so you have food to eat and to sell so you can make a living and not starve. You don't farm to get fit. You farm to eat and to make an income. But by farming, as a side benefit, you will also become fit and healthy from all the labor involved.

 

[Flying Crane]

When in doubt... kuhp / pao / chyuhn ...

White Crane's "Three Cups of Wine". chyuhn-pao-kuhp and the bad guy falls down like he's in a drunken stupor.

 

[clfsean]

White Crane's "Three Cups of Wine". chyuhn-pao-kuhp and the bad guy falls down like he's in a drunken stupor.

And if there's doubt... rinse & repeat until there's no doubt...

 

[MJS]

I'm not hugely convinced that martial arts are just for "combat" anyway. people use tai chi for relaxation and health, or kickboxing style fitness classes. are these people any less martial artists than someone who is geared towards combat?
..
combat is a pretty broad term in of itself. combat can be front lines of a war zone up to restraining drunk and annoyed friends at a party, both of which have martial arts made for them, but are vastly different techniques for both. in my opinion there are no "better" martial arts, only martial arts with different goals and approaches. if you want a ***-kicking gum-chewing striking style, then go do that. if you want softer, more fluid style, do that instead. neither are "better", because there is no objective way to measure "betterness"

I have to agree with FC on this one. The focus of the arts years ago was most likely fighting, whereas today, we have people who're looking for something to do to lose weight, make friends, etc. I don't train for the sole purpose of fitness. I go to the gym for that. I go to my classes to learn SD, and become a better fighter...plain and simple. Making friends, losing weight....those things are all fine, but they're a side benefit of training.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Farming is the same way. Farming includes a lot of hard, physical labor. That makes you strong and fit. Lots of time outdoors, keeps you healthy. But what's the real purpose of farming? To grow food, so you have food to eat and to sell so you can make a living and not starve. You don't farm to get fit. You farm to eat and to make an income. But by farming, as a side benefit, you will also become fit and healthy from all the labor involved.

The Chen family were farmers and the 19th generation grew up as farmers too

 

[Xue Sheng]

White Crane's "Three Cups of Wine". chyuhn-pao-kuhp and the bad guy falls down like he's in a drunken stupor.

And if there's doubt... rinse & repeat until there's no doubt...

Oh for crying out loud... PAOQUAN!!!!! they don't get up...but then the same can be said for Piquan, Zuanquan, Bengquan and Hengquan too... just like southern devil talkers...talk to much and hit to much too

 

[clfsean]

The Chen family were farmers and the 19th generation grew up as farmers too

They still did as of '01. When I was there they, like many between Zhenzhou & Chen Jia Guo / Wen Xian, were laying out the spring wheat on the road so as passing cars/people/bicycles/etc ... went by, cracked the wheat husk for them making it easier to get the kernel. Plus it helped to break the stem to use for other things.

 

[Cyriacus]

Farming is the same way. Farming includes a lot of hard, physical labor. That makes you strong and fit. Lots of time outdoors, keeps you healthy. But what's the real purpose of farming? To grow food, so you have food to eat and to sell so you can make a living and not starve. You don't farm to get fit. You farm to eat and to make an income. But by farming, as a side benefit, you will also become fit and healthy from all the labor involved.

Which would happen drastically more efficiently if you just went and did fitness. With martial arts, if you just wanna learn ways to do stuff to people youd do well to not waste learning time on workouts. You can do that seperately, and to greater effect.

 

[Balrog]

Okay, I ran along the theory of aliveness while on another forum. Recently, many people seem to worship sparring, MMA, BJJ, and discredit any "soft" form of martial arts as ineffective/unrealistic unless if are studied with extensive cross training. However, many here know that a skilled martial artist studying a "soft" MA is deadlier than any kickboxer or striker.

That statement is not correct.

This is just a variation of the "Martal Art X is better than Martial Art Y" concept. It's not the martial art. It's the martial artist. Whoever is better trained will usually win the encounter.

 

[Xue Sheng]

They still did as of '01. When I was there they, like many between Zhenzhou & Chen Jia Guo / Wen Xian, were laying out the spring wheat on the road so as passing cars/people/bicycles/etc ... went by, cracked the wheat husk for them making it easier to get the kernel. Plus it helped to break the stem to use for other things.

I thought so, but I was not sure, and I am still not sure the 20th generation folks that do Chen Taiji have done any farming at all. I know Xiaowang and Xiaoxing did but I am not sure any of the Chen Taiji folks that came after that did

 

[Flying Crane]

just like southern devil talkers...talk to much and hit to much too

no...we hit too HARD.

 

[clfsean]

I thought so, but I was not sure, and I am still not sure the 20th generation folks that do Chen Taiji have done any farming at all. I know Xiaowang and Xiaoxing did but I am not sure any of the Chen Taiji folks that came after that did

Truth. Gotta remember, just cause you're a Chen, living in the village, doesn't mean you're one of "those" Chens. You might practice taiji, but there's practice, then there's PRACTICE which is where the great separation lies.

 

[K-man]

That statement is not correct.

This is just a variation of the "Martal Art X is better than Martial Art Y" concept. It's not the martial art. It's the martial artist. Whoever is better trained will usually win the encounter.

I think it is far more complicated than that. In one way it is completely correct but not in the way the OP intended. That indeed was, as you suggest, one style being better than another. And you are also completely correct in saying that it is the martial artist. Then we have GaryR's position which is also correct but not at the skill level of most practitioners.

Many masters of many styles maintained their potency into old age. They didn't do that by clashing physically with their younger and stronger opponent's. They bypassed or utilised their opponent's strength and this is what makes what they do 'soft'. There is more to it than that, but this is a simple explanation. Hence my comment that 'hard' becomes 'soft'. The other part was also pointed out by GaryR, that, with 'soft', the strikes are faster and hence are harder. Once again, a simple explanation that is, in reality, far more complicated.
:asian:

 

[seasoned]

A baseball bat is hard while a whip is soft. I would prefer to not get hit by either one. Both generate power very differently and the concepts and principles do not transfer over to one another. We all start out like the bat but hopefully as we age we become more like the whip. IMHO