Sorry to hear bout that Matt. as you know, I know what it feel like to be "betrayed". At first it smacks you around a little. Then you can use it to grow from. User's are everywhere.
Peace out my friend,
Peace out my friend,
What to do when betrayed
- Thread starter matt.m
- Start date
Actually the schools website does provide quite a bit of informationI also missed the part where the discussion switched to your club.
So you weren't lecturing all of us then on how a commerical club should be run?
Kumbajah
Purple Belt
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No - just pointing out some of the factors that are involved. I don't think I talked of any business plans. If you don't acknowledge the commercial nature of the relationship you are being delusional - imo. There is a difference.
This is a bit late but... I've had a similar thing happen to me when a person I thought was a good friend betrayed me and nearly wrecked my caving career in Utah.
Seems that I took an unauthorized trip into a gated cave (meaning 1 trip per month but I took an extra trip for other people -- who otherwise would've never seen the cave in question)... was nearly caught but thought it was going to be alright. My friend and then caving buddy picked me up one evening for a drive out in to the mountains to mess around and started asking me about what I had done that previous weekend.
I told him in what I thought was in confidence and we chatted a while about it and other things.
Later it turned out that I was questioned about it by caving officers and I was puzzled as to how they knew... later still while riding around again with this friend he stopped into a store to get something... I searched his (truck) cab for a lighter and found... a micro cassette... red flags went up everywhere and I pocketed the tape without him knowing (ok it was wrong but!!)... later found a micro cassette recorder/player and listened in stunned silence at our conversation the previous weekend.
Needless to say I was livid but confronted him about it after making a copy on to a full sized cassette... and invited him to listen to the damnedest thing he'll ever hear... Asked him about two minutes later... "why?" He had no answer. Told him to get out of my house and to never speak to me again. I told him that I could press charges against him and those involved because you CANNOT record someone without their consent (written or otherwise). Also told him that he's lucky that I got out of the drug dealing trade a LONG time ago (before we met) because if I hadn't the method of our parting would be radically different.
Oh yeah, it hurt because we were close and had lots of adventures and he brought me into his family's life... afterwards it made me not trust anyone for a long time after that, and THAT hurts too. I mean I trusted folks yeah but with a grain of salt. It felt bad to have to do this to other friends when I deep down knew they didn't deserved it.
I was later venerated from my *ahem* misdeeds (it wasn't necessarily illegal just a breech of protocol) and regained the respect that I had lost. But I had to move on and get on and keep on. This is what you must do as well. Not everyone is going to want to bend you over the fence but at least you're wiser for it now and know how/where/when to be cautious. You'll find out (if not already) who your real friends are. I did and am grateful for it.
We met up again about two years later... we're okay now. Friends again and the incident is forgotten... between us. But I will have to say sadly... he does not have my 100% trust as he did before. But we're okay... time does heal most wounds (if not all). If this guy was a friend then understand that they're hard to come by. If there were good times before then they can be again if you wish. Some folks you GOT to cut off completely... but some folks can be forgiven... if not forgotten. :wink1:
Good luck to you.
Seems that I took an unauthorized trip into a gated cave (meaning 1 trip per month but I took an extra trip for other people -- who otherwise would've never seen the cave in question)... was nearly caught but thought it was going to be alright. My friend and then caving buddy picked me up one evening for a drive out in to the mountains to mess around and started asking me about what I had done that previous weekend.
I told him in what I thought was in confidence and we chatted a while about it and other things.
Later it turned out that I was questioned about it by caving officers and I was puzzled as to how they knew... later still while riding around again with this friend he stopped into a store to get something... I searched his (truck) cab for a lighter and found... a micro cassette... red flags went up everywhere and I pocketed the tape without him knowing (ok it was wrong but!!)... later found a micro cassette recorder/player and listened in stunned silence at our conversation the previous weekend.
Needless to say I was livid but confronted him about it after making a copy on to a full sized cassette... and invited him to listen to the damnedest thing he'll ever hear... Asked him about two minutes later... "why?" He had no answer. Told him to get out of my house and to never speak to me again. I told him that I could press charges against him and those involved because you CANNOT record someone without their consent (written or otherwise). Also told him that he's lucky that I got out of the drug dealing trade a LONG time ago (before we met) because if I hadn't the method of our parting would be radically different.
Oh yeah, it hurt because we were close and had lots of adventures and he brought me into his family's life... afterwards it made me not trust anyone for a long time after that, and THAT hurts too. I mean I trusted folks yeah but with a grain of salt. It felt bad to have to do this to other friends when I deep down knew they didn't deserved it.
I was later venerated from my *ahem* misdeeds (it wasn't necessarily illegal just a breech of protocol) and regained the respect that I had lost. But I had to move on and get on and keep on. This is what you must do as well. Not everyone is going to want to bend you over the fence but at least you're wiser for it now and know how/where/when to be cautious. You'll find out (if not already) who your real friends are. I did and am grateful for it.
We met up again about two years later... we're okay now. Friends again and the incident is forgotten... between us. But I will have to say sadly... he does not have my 100% trust as he did before. But we're okay... time does heal most wounds (if not all). If this guy was a friend then understand that they're hard to come by. If there were good times before then they can be again if you wish. Some folks you GOT to cut off completely... but some folks can be forgiven... if not forgotten. :wink1:
Good luck to you.
Matt,
With the additional details, I now understand why you felt betrayed.
At the very least, the behavior and attitude was absolutely disrespectful, and I definitely agree with you on not training with this person, and not teaching them any further.
I'll make one suggestion: You mention PTSD and TBI. It's possible that these are causing some of this behavior. I used to know a guy who was in a motorcycle wreck, and suffered some minor brain damage -- except that it kind of twisted the normal filters in his head, and they didn't quite work right anymore. Plus side -- you knew exactly what he thought... with minus side being you knew exactly what he thought, because he'd say it. There could be something like this going on with the disrespectful behavior to your grandmaster.
Don't let this jerk tie up your energy; he's demonstrated he's not worth the hassle. If he chooses to eat crow and return down the road, I'd start him back a few steps, and let him earn the right to advance, if I let him back.
With the additional details, I now understand why you felt betrayed.
At the very least, the behavior and attitude was absolutely disrespectful, and I definitely agree with you on not training with this person, and not teaching them any further.
I'll make one suggestion: You mention PTSD and TBI. It's possible that these are causing some of this behavior. I used to know a guy who was in a motorcycle wreck, and suffered some minor brain damage -- except that it kind of twisted the normal filters in his head, and they didn't quite work right anymore. Plus side -- you knew exactly what he thought... with minus side being you knew exactly what he thought, because he'd say it. There could be something like this going on with the disrespectful behavior to your grandmaster.
Don't let this jerk tie up your energy; he's demonstrated he's not worth the hassle. If he chooses to eat crow and return down the road, I'd start him back a few steps, and let him earn the right to advance, if I let him back.
- Thread Starter
- #47
Hey K,
Look in St. L we charge our students $60 a month to learn Judo, Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do. We are the furthest thing from commercial. Ironically, I haven't really understood a word you said about commercialism. Look, if I want to get my oil changed then I go wherever I want. Big deal, I pay money they change my oil end of story.
However, I have to agree with Tez, you make no sense. Plus, that was a bit snide of you to use the phrase "I forgot when we got on the subject of your club". She was merely using an example.
Plus, if I made the statement of "I don't care if he goes to another school for another art." then I meant it. However, lying to me as well as causing trouble with my family (Father), and the GM of the Org. who is a good friend then I draw the line.
I understand there are people who look at strip mall kung fu get your black belt in a year mcdojo's as a hobby. However, I was not raised this way.
"Do or do not" period. Also, I have known my share of hobbiests. Both on the Marine Judo team and civilian martial arts, they don't last long. Neither do the hobbiest that joins a gym in Jan. for a New Year's resolution. You don't see them anymore about March.
So you missed the whole point, I have and do give private lessons in my basement for students that want the extra help for free.
Really man you should look at the 11 leadership traits, 14 leadership principles, of the U.S. Marine Corps. Also, take a look at Budo and it's meaning. If you have no understanding of Budo then IMO you are just a guy that practices technique which makes you a hobbiest not a Martial Artist. Really, "Knowing yourself and seeking self improvement" is at the top of the list. Too me a day without Judo is a wasted day. I mean that figuratively considering I practice hapkido, sword, staff, physical training, mental training, flexibility, read. Whatever, the point is without improving yourself you are nothing but a hobbiest, and god help you if you have to use hobbiest skills to protect yourself one day.
A wise man once told me "The day you have to defend yourself is going to be the most miserable day of your life....you will be hungry, tired, sick, cold, wet and just want to die and there will be your opponent. Keep pushin." That mentality kept me alive in the Marine Corps. So if I seem a little hard nosed to you then I will not expect you to visit my class anytime soon. But that is ok. Remember I wore a uniform to defend that neat little piece of paper in D.C. that says people have rights and can basically do what they want within societies laws and parameters.
Look in St. L we charge our students $60 a month to learn Judo, Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do. We are the furthest thing from commercial. Ironically, I haven't really understood a word you said about commercialism. Look, if I want to get my oil changed then I go wherever I want. Big deal, I pay money they change my oil end of story.
However, I have to agree with Tez, you make no sense. Plus, that was a bit snide of you to use the phrase "I forgot when we got on the subject of your club". She was merely using an example.
Plus, if I made the statement of "I don't care if he goes to another school for another art." then I meant it. However, lying to me as well as causing trouble with my family (Father), and the GM of the Org. who is a good friend then I draw the line.
I understand there are people who look at strip mall kung fu get your black belt in a year mcdojo's as a hobby. However, I was not raised this way.
"Do or do not" period. Also, I have known my share of hobbiests. Both on the Marine Judo team and civilian martial arts, they don't last long. Neither do the hobbiest that joins a gym in Jan. for a New Year's resolution. You don't see them anymore about March.
So you missed the whole point, I have and do give private lessons in my basement for students that want the extra help for free.
Really man you should look at the 11 leadership traits, 14 leadership principles, of the U.S. Marine Corps. Also, take a look at Budo and it's meaning. If you have no understanding of Budo then IMO you are just a guy that practices technique which makes you a hobbiest not a Martial Artist. Really, "Knowing yourself and seeking self improvement" is at the top of the list. Too me a day without Judo is a wasted day. I mean that figuratively considering I practice hapkido, sword, staff, physical training, mental training, flexibility, read. Whatever, the point is without improving yourself you are nothing but a hobbiest, and god help you if you have to use hobbiest skills to protect yourself one day.
A wise man once told me "The day you have to defend yourself is going to be the most miserable day of your life....you will be hungry, tired, sick, cold, wet and just want to die and there will be your opponent. Keep pushin." That mentality kept me alive in the Marine Corps. So if I seem a little hard nosed to you then I will not expect you to visit my class anytime soon. But that is ok. Remember I wore a uniform to defend that neat little piece of paper in D.C. that says people have rights and can basically do what they want within societies laws and parameters.
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Kumbajah
Purple Belt
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Matt this guy seems like a real dillhole and probably should be booted. For whatever reason he hasn't been. I am sorry that you have been traumatized by this episode. He disrespected you and the school but he didn't betray anyone. There's a difference.
As for a commercial school - The school owner charges to render a service - the profits from those services rendered go in someone's pocket. A Commercial school regardless of the affordability of those services. Just because someone is a hobbyist doesn't mean they aren't serious about their hobby. I know many hobbyist golfers that are obsessive about it.
I understand Budo and the life commitment it entails but teaching out of commercial school you need to understand business. You are setting yourself to suffer a lot of disappointment if you can't see where the boundaries lie. Not everyone that walks through the door is signing up to walk the path. It's not the Corps.
Again, sorry you had to suffer through this.
As for a commercial school - The school owner charges to render a service - the profits from those services rendered go in someone's pocket. A Commercial school regardless of the affordability of those services. Just because someone is a hobbyist doesn't mean they aren't serious about their hobby. I know many hobbyist golfers that are obsessive about it.
I understand Budo and the life commitment it entails but teaching out of commercial school you need to understand business. You are setting yourself to suffer a lot of disappointment if you can't see where the boundaries lie. Not everyone that walks through the door is signing up to walk the path. It's not the Corps.
Again, sorry you had to suffer through this.
Just because instructors charge doesn't mean it's a commercial school. there's a difference between a school where money is charged to provide a living for the instructors and owner, where making a profit is looked for and the school that charges to cover costs - rent, utilities, insurances etc. I don't know anyone that has so much money they can teach for free in proper premises. I do know many who would teach for free in Dojos/Dojangs etc if they could.
Kumbajah
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Absolutely correct Tez3. A non-profit can charge money but the surplus money (profit) if there is any, goes back into the organization. A commercial school the surplus money goes to a school owner that can spend for goods and services unrelated to the school ( like his home mortgage, food for his family, car payments, etc ) In a commercial setting you have to be cognizant of your clients expectations and try to meet them it is part of running a successful business. You sell a service that the consumer wants.
Funny, I thought I said that rofl!!
I can't see Matt's school unless they have a huge amount of students making any profit from charging 30 quid a month and he's already said they aren't commercial.
Matt, I suggest you have a run ashore, a few wets, get minging but don't get yourself a double bagger! Call endex on this guy who's clearly a tubbin numpty! :uhyeah:
KELLYG
2nd Black Belt
I am not a martial arts instructor or Military person.
I think that with good instruction something of yourself is being given away to your student. A person that is spending extra time and effort to help you gain a personal goal should be offered respect. For this student to make an *** of himself in front of you, your father and the GM is unforgivable. If there was some kind of a disagreement it should have been handled behind close doors or in a private setting.
Sounds like this friendship was in trouble due to some previous "smelly" things that went down previously. You gave him the benefits of many doubts, he failed not you. It also sounds like you were opening yourself up to his friendship and he shot you down. This always hurts and I am sorry you had to go thru this.
I think that with good instruction something of yourself is being given away to your student. A person that is spending extra time and effort to help you gain a personal goal should be offered respect. For this student to make an *** of himself in front of you, your father and the GM is unforgivable. If there was some kind of a disagreement it should have been handled behind close doors or in a private setting.
Sounds like this friendship was in trouble due to some previous "smelly" things that went down previously. You gave him the benefits of many doubts, he failed not you. It also sounds like you were opening yourself up to his friendship and he shot you down. This always hurts and I am sorry you had to go thru this.
Kumbajah
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The price may be consistent with the area. The amount of profit isn't the point - it's where it goes. If it goes in someone's pocket it's a commercial school. It may be simply be supplemental income.
- Thread Starter
- #54
Hey K,
I appreciate the apology. Sincerely I do. Consider the following definitions according to dictionary.com....
Lying: A false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
Betrayal: To lead astray; deceive. See Synonyms at deceive.
However, I grew up in farm country in a scottish clan where your word was your bond and that is all you were judged on.
I had to temporarily remove a student from my class last year because he had issues outside of class domestically. He has and is continuing counciling and treatment. I talk to the guy once a week and told him as long as he keeps attempting to get better I would let him come back. Not only is he returning Thursday for Judo but I am not asking him to pay until Jan.
The commercial schools in St. L charge 100-150 a month eft draft etc. We put money in, (The black belts) for the rent and utilities on occasion. We have old equipment and it is more or less a sweaty dungeon. But it is the smell of hard training, blood, sweat and tears. We have a good mat, but we had to wait a long time for repair etc.
I guess our school is like the Marine Corps in a way, "You have to really want it to be there." A lot of people can't grasp taking 4-6 years of consistent training to even be considered as a black belt candidate. That I don't understand. It takes so many reps for someone to get the basis of a technique. I believe 10,000 is the bar dad has set for himself and always told me. There are hobbiest in our org. sure. They come to tournaments, do the best they can and have a lot of fun. I guess growing up the son of now a sixth dan just gave me a little different perspective on things and how they should be.
Either way it makes no difference, I appreciate the apology and thank you for it. Oh, and by the way......I sent a lot of people to crappy details, the brig, drunk tank etc. while in the military that I didn't want to necessarily do. However, it was the right thing to do. I am a firm believer in rehabilitation, I myself am a product of it. I have done the anger management class and see folks for P.T.S.D. weekly. Like I said I am no saint by any stretch of the imagination but I try my best to always put my best foot forward and have honesty and integrity.
I appreciate the apology. Sincerely I do. Consider the following definitions according to dictionary.com....
Lying: A false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
Betrayal: To lead astray; deceive. See Synonyms at deceive.
However, I grew up in farm country in a scottish clan where your word was your bond and that is all you were judged on.
I had to temporarily remove a student from my class last year because he had issues outside of class domestically. He has and is continuing counciling and treatment. I talk to the guy once a week and told him as long as he keeps attempting to get better I would let him come back. Not only is he returning Thursday for Judo but I am not asking him to pay until Jan.
The commercial schools in St. L charge 100-150 a month eft draft etc. We put money in, (The black belts) for the rent and utilities on occasion. We have old equipment and it is more or less a sweaty dungeon. But it is the smell of hard training, blood, sweat and tears. We have a good mat, but we had to wait a long time for repair etc.
I guess our school is like the Marine Corps in a way, "You have to really want it to be there." A lot of people can't grasp taking 4-6 years of consistent training to even be considered as a black belt candidate. That I don't understand. It takes so many reps for someone to get the basis of a technique. I believe 10,000 is the bar dad has set for himself and always told me. There are hobbiest in our org. sure. They come to tournaments, do the best they can and have a lot of fun. I guess growing up the son of now a sixth dan just gave me a little different perspective on things and how they should be.
Either way it makes no difference, I appreciate the apology and thank you for it. Oh, and by the way......I sent a lot of people to crappy details, the brig, drunk tank etc. while in the military that I didn't want to necessarily do. However, it was the right thing to do. I am a firm believer in rehabilitation, I myself am a product of it. I have done the anger management class and see folks for P.T.S.D. weekly. Like I said I am no saint by any stretch of the imagination but I try my best to always put my best foot forward and have honesty and integrity.
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Kumbajah
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I'm just expressing my sympathy. Although I have the feeling you may think I was being a dick or didn't get it - I was just trying to frame the issue in a way that may help you see it more clearly.
On the personal interaction level it is not the same environment as the military so you shouldn't expect the bonds to be the same. Not everyone you train or train with will become your brothers in arms. Some are just coming in to learn "some cool stuff" and will be on their way. Try not to take it personally. It's not a reflection on you. They are just coming for what they paid for. If you choose to give more - it has to be with the understanding that it unconditional or you may get hurt again. The way they choose to honor your gift is on them. Not every one has the sense of honor and responsibility that you've developed.
On the professional level my point is this - it's not your school - it's your GM's school. If you are going to teach there you are subject to his wishes and behavioral standards because it is his school. If he makes $1 a year or $100000 a year it's a commercial school. ( or occasionally loses money) Your behavior affects that number. The amount of students affects that number. So you may have to put up with some BS. People are paying for a service which they expect to be rendered. Who he chooses to sell that service to and for how much is his choice. You have to respect his professional standards even if they are at odds with your personal ones. If you can't see it though that lens then you may start to take things personally which it isn't - it's just business.
On the personal interaction level it is not the same environment as the military so you shouldn't expect the bonds to be the same. Not everyone you train or train with will become your brothers in arms. Some are just coming in to learn "some cool stuff" and will be on their way. Try not to take it personally. It's not a reflection on you. They are just coming for what they paid for. If you choose to give more - it has to be with the understanding that it unconditional or you may get hurt again. The way they choose to honor your gift is on them. Not every one has the sense of honor and responsibility that you've developed.
On the professional level my point is this - it's not your school - it's your GM's school. If you are going to teach there you are subject to his wishes and behavioral standards because it is his school. If he makes $1 a year or $100000 a year it's a commercial school. ( or occasionally loses money) Your behavior affects that number. The amount of students affects that number. So you may have to put up with some BS. People are paying for a service which they expect to be rendered. Who he chooses to sell that service to and for how much is his choice. You have to respect his professional standards even if they are at odds with your personal ones. If you can't see it though that lens then you may start to take things personally which it isn't - it's just business.
hapkidonet
Yellow Belt
Without getting into the specifics of this particular situation, I want to address the question of what to do when betrayed.
There are two ways you can respond.
1. You can stop trusting people, stop extending yourself in ways that would get you hurt. The problem with that is that you end up "safe" but alone, cynical and bitter.
2. Or you can make a conscious choice to keep on believing in the fundamental goodness of people, and giving them the benefit of the doubt. You might end your relationship with the particular person who betrayed you, but in general you choose to continue having faith in people, knowing full well that you might get burned from time to time.
I choose the latter. Yes, sometimes I loan money and it doesn't get paid back, or I extend myself to a friend and they don't return the favor. Every now and then I get hurt. But I maintain my faith in humanity and in friendship because I don't want to pass on cynicism and mistrust to my children. Life is short and in the end you suffer the greatest betrayal of all, that of your own failing body. What you'll remember and be proud of in the end are the acts of kindness that you committed, the good that you did in the world. You'll never look back and think, "I was too trusting, I shouldn't have let that guy burn me that one time."
This was not meant as a commentary on any particular's person's behavior. Just my general philosophy of friendship and life.
There are two ways you can respond.
1. You can stop trusting people, stop extending yourself in ways that would get you hurt. The problem with that is that you end up "safe" but alone, cynical and bitter.
2. Or you can make a conscious choice to keep on believing in the fundamental goodness of people, and giving them the benefit of the doubt. You might end your relationship with the particular person who betrayed you, but in general you choose to continue having faith in people, knowing full well that you might get burned from time to time.
I choose the latter. Yes, sometimes I loan money and it doesn't get paid back, or I extend myself to a friend and they don't return the favor. Every now and then I get hurt. But I maintain my faith in humanity and in friendship because I don't want to pass on cynicism and mistrust to my children. Life is short and in the end you suffer the greatest betrayal of all, that of your own failing body. What you'll remember and be proud of in the end are the acts of kindness that you committed, the good that you did in the world. You'll never look back and think, "I was too trusting, I shouldn't have let that guy burn me that one time."
This was not meant as a commentary on any particular's person's behavior. Just my general philosophy of friendship and life.
kidswarrior
Senior Master
So much for Matt doing this as a commercial venture. Just as he didn't serve in the USMC for the pay, even though he got paid.
I've known Matt here on MT awhile now, and so have long known his passion for doing the right thing, and being *solid* with people. But this thread has made it obvious he goes way out of his way to make his MA group like family. And it's equally obvious to me--as a professional teacher the past 20 years--that lives are being affected for the good. That's way above and beyond, in my book.
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