What to do when betrayed

The thread title might suggest a request for advice but the OP text itself was really more a venting to a community of 'friends' about a situation obviously far worse than was explicitly spoken of.

I don't think that the head of an organisation is going to be particularly upset just because a junior grade student dodged a couple of mobile phone calls from an instructor, do you?

So there's no need to be unpleasant about the affair and it is one of those quite common situations where if your opinion veers to the critical and unpleasant then it's probably best to save your words for another time.
 
Kumbajah said:
I take a different view - he posted on a public forum looking for advice. I'm not his friend - I'm just a guy that likes Hapkido that also likes to chat about it. With the details provided I don't see betrayal. So rather then indulging immature handling of a socially awkward situation my advice is to reexamine the situation and see if he can gain a deeper understanding. Perhaps there is something else to the story that Matt's behavior contributed to the situation. Maybe he mistook a training situation as friendship and was calling the guy too much and the guy was just dodging him - I don't know - the details are scant. I don't think he has to be mollycoddled.
Click to expand...

Well then you should really think what this forum is about. We have been like a family here and will continue to be to the people of this forum, sorry you do not understand this.
 
I guess I took the title at face value.

I don't think my advice is unpleasant - examine the situation and see if you were partially to blame. Digest the situation before acting in rash manner. My speculation on the situation was simply an example of a possible "other side" of the story. From the information provided his reaction seemed excessive - imo. If he wants to clarify - I'll listen.

If the head of the org is upset about cross training - I think the head is wrong. The student doesn't sign up to be owned, he signs up to train. It is an unhealthy relationship to see it as an exclusive relationship. It's not a Koryu we're talking about.

I can appreciate feeling a sense of community but as public forum, the public is involved. There are Private messages and email if one doesn't want the public's input.
 
After reading Matt's entire post, I totally understand how he feels betrayed.

Matt.m has repsponsibility to many folks outside his martial arts intrests, includiing his employer, his friends, his wife, and the rest of his family. Not to mention he's a fellow that has been very bravely battling a number of orthopaedic issues.

What does it mean for someone like Matt to put in a lot of extra effort with a student? It likely means he has to sacrefice time and energy away from something else...perhaps even something else he'd rather be doing...o help a student out that was chasing a promotion. It may mean that he's endured some physical pain that he wouldn't have had to endure had he not been on the mat for an extended period of time.

What did he get in return? A person that didn't return his phone calls and then lies to his face about why he didn't call back. I think everyone's been in a position where they had so much going on that they didn't give proper attention to follow up phone calls or e-mails....but the way to handle such a situation is to admit that one made a mistake....not lying to the person that made the sacrifice.
 
I don't know - Matt chose to be an instructor and also chose to spend the extra time. For me the extra time I spend is because I want to be sure they get it - I feel obligated to that end not because I expect a return. I have knowledge that I think is worth sharing - so I share it. Like any other gift once given you don't have any say in what is done with it or it hasn't been truly given, just loaned.

I think this is a case of mismatched expectations. Sounds as if the offender didn't know the instruction came with strings attached, Matt made the assumption that there was. In a commercial situation most consumers assume that their tuition is compensation for instruction. I don't think the extra time obligates him to field his calls. A "sorry, missed the calls" would have gone a long way. It could have been handled better. I still don't see betrayal.

Unfortunate situation but not irresolvable. Sounds like a sit down might help massage the relationship back in order.
 
I very much respect the time commitment. In fact, I have a personal policy that if you're more than 15 minutes late, I'm no longer available. (On my teacher's advice, I developed that policy after someone showed up more than 2 hours late -- and I still made the time to train with them.) Exceptions can be made on a case by case basis based on contacting me within or before that window closes.

And, if I catch you in a lie, you can be sure I'm not going to trust you without very careful consideration. And probably an apology. And a fair bit of time -- plus lots of smaller trusts being maintained. In other words -- if you show me I can't trust you, you're going to have to work real hard to earn my trust back.

But I'm not exactly sure that this incident, as related, would be a "betrayal" in my personal ledger book. I don't know...

Not easy.

But I generally handle things like this kind of simply. I'm not going to let someone else's actions shape my self image or tie me into knots. I do that enough to myself. Kind of "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" mindset...
 
I think your rule is a good example of clearly set boundaries and expectations.
 
jks9199 said:
I very much respect the time commitment. In fact, I have a personal policy that if you're more than 15 minutes late, I'm no longer available. (On my teacher's advice, I developed that policy after someone showed up more than 2 hours late -- and I still made the time to train with them.) Exceptions can be made on a case by case basis based on contacting me within or before that window closes.

And, if I catch you in a lie, you can be sure I'm not going to trust you without very careful consideration. And probably an apology. And a fair bit of time -- plus lots of smaller trusts being maintained. In other words -- if you show me I can't trust you, you're going to have to work real hard to earn my trust back.

But I'm not exactly sure that this incident, as related, would be a "betrayal" in my personal ledger book. I don't know...

Not easy.

But I generally handle things like this kind of simply. I'm not going to let someone else's actions shape my self image or tie me into knots. I do that enough to myself. Kind of "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" mindset...
Click to expand...


I also have that 15 minute rule, great minds think alike.
 
Thank you everyone to who has shown support. Look, the ones who have known me on the board or corresponded with me outside this open forum knows that I don't like to rub people through the mud. However, Kumbajah, sorry if I spelled wrong, if you must know......I am his 3rd instructor and his 3rd school in the same organization.

He began with my father, until he rubbed the entire class the wrong way, he went to another school in the org. that had an aspect shut down. He has P.T.S.D. and T.B.I. which is Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and Traumatic Brain Injury. I have both conditions as well so I looked at his situation as "He is just misunderstood". Even with my father's advice I was still a bit too trusting of this person.

I did everything in the world to try and help him in hapkido and Judo. Very regrettably I even argued with good friends at a tournament in respect to my former Judo student concerning judging. It's a good thing for me that my friends understood why I argued with them and no harm was done. Instructors stick up for their students like Non Commissioned Officers of Marines stick up for their troops. I know that sounds double edged but if you are an instructor you understand.

So, I was just a bit worried because this guy was and has always been early for class without fail for 6 months. That is why I called. You see I ask only one thing of my students if they aren't going to make it to class to call and let me know. No big deal. I have a student that is 10 minutes late due to work and travel distance, however that was told to me in the very beginning and they show up almost completely dressed out and make no haste towards "Jumping right in." when they arrive.

I am a combat vet that led troops into battle as a Sgt. of Marines, so I ask you to not say something to the effect of "I give extra time because it is my job as an instructor." I am retired from work because of my medical responsibilities that I have to maintain just to keep me going. *Thank you Carol for pointing that out.*

If you haven't led troops into combat where you were responsible for other's lives then you don't know what "Hard or going the extra mile really is." Sorry just my opinion.

So after telling me "I didn't answer your call because I just didn't feel like it" and then in a raised tone told the GM of the org. I am only here for hapkido, I don't care about Tae Kwon Do it's bullcrap." I mean gee GM accepted this guy into the school in St. L out of good faith. He has always done a lot for everyone in the school for several years. I have never, ever, ever seen he or my father be so aggravated by a student before, red faced and genuinely angry. Both have very calm demeanors.

Everyone in the St. L school cross trains in something. Escrima, bo staff, knife, I am big on sword. It doesn't matter.....that is not the point. The point is that this person was a disrespectful liar. Not only to me but to the head of the org., my father and others.

So, I don't want a student in my Judo class nor a partner in hapkido that doesn't have integrity. Sorry, I am not a saint in any stretch of the imagination, however I will say things the way I see them no matter if you want to hear them or not.....but I do have integrity.

In the Marines that was the foundation of the establishment (Integrity), sorry I have strong convictions. How could I with good conscience go into combat with someone I couldn't trust? Not possible, so to me it is no different as an instructor. I can't teach or work with someone I can't trust. This isn't the first time something "Smelly" has arose so to speak this is just the icing on the cake that broke the last straw.

If GM doesn't want him in class, which is not the case then that is his business not mine. His school, I just instruct a class there. However, it is at my discretion as a 2nd dan in Judo, 2nd dan in MCMAP, and brown belt in hapkido who I will work with. Afterall I don't have to partner up with anyone whom I do not choose to.

Like I said earlier, my efforts are spent better on people who genuinely want my help out of sincerity, not just because it benefits them because I am better at something than them. I told my Judo students a few years back when I began my class. "Class welcome, 1st of all Judo is hard but fun so falling will be our favorite thing. Secondly, my belt is black because I have been doing this for longer than you, that is all. Work hard and you will be a dan one day. Never hesithitate to ask a question." Geez, last week we had a class based solely on "I see these as your strong points, what do you think your weak points are or what do you want to review."
I had nothing but good hard training and honesty from the students.

Furthermore, it seems to me that the fellow in question is just wanting a black belt in a different style of hapkido just to have one so he can say he is a black belt. He is going to this other school to work another art, no problem but you know you should be loyal to your organization and the instructors who have attempted to help you. Gee, in the Marines if someone was even disloyal to their own room mate, squad, or unit. Well you don't want to know the reprecussions, you wouldn't believe me if I told you anyway. There is nothing cultish about loyalty and integrity. If you believe differently then you my friend need to do some real soul searching. Afterall, martial arts isn't really about techniques.....it is about everything else like honor, integrity, commitment, self respect, you know all those good fuzzy things about being a decent human being are really the root of the M.A.'s. Same with the Marine Corps, anyone can get in shape and fire a weapon, however without those decent human being qualitites I mentioned then it is worthless. Sorry, you may not agree and that is ok. Too each their own.

So again to all of you who have supported me thank you. It is greatly appreciated, Drac of all people know the situation best outside of the Moo Sul Kwan organization.
 
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Matt, we don't train in the same systems, and I don't know much about your organizations. However, I've shared the mat with folks like the people that you walked away from. I've seen my instructors give up time and energy trying desperately to reach a student, only to have the student treat the instructor, or the school with disrespect.

I can understand why some schools keep these kinds of students around. Often its a business decision. Each member is another hundred bucks a month, each member makes the school one notch stronger, each member gives the head instructor one notch more organizational clout.

However there are way too many instructors out there that run on the policy that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. The ones that complain and whine the loudest get the most attention, when more respectful or even just quieter students lose out on attention they need. It takes a very strong person to be able to step up to a problem student and tell them that they don't have the stuff to continue. I'm sure your students that respect you greatly appreciate the decision. Thank you. :asian:
 
Matt, I'm not discounting your feelings. I do disagree with you on the role and boundaries of an instructor. I hope you get some closure and you and he both get the help that you need.

Peace
 
Thank you everyone to who has shown support. Look, the ones who have known me on the board or corresponded with me outside this open forum knows that I don't like to rub people through the mud. However, Kumbajah, sorry if I spelled wrong, if you must know......I am his 3rd instructor and his 3rd school in the same organization.

He began with my father, until he rubbed the entire class the wrong way, he went to another school in the org. that had an aspect shut down. He has P.T.S.D. and T.B.I. which is Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and Traumatic Brain Injury. I have both conditions as well so I looked at his situation as "He is just misunderstood". Even with my father's advice I was still a bit too trusting of this person.

I did everything in the world to try and help him in hapkido and Judo. Very regrettably I even argued with good friends at a tournament in respect to my former Judo student concerning judging. It's a good thing for me that my friends understood why I argued with them and no harm was done. Instructors stick up for their students like Non Commissioned Officers of Marines stick up for their troops. I know that sounds double edged but if you are an instructor you understand.

So, I was just a bit worried because this guy was and has always been early for class without fail for 6 months. That is why I called. You see I ask only one thing of my students if they aren't going to make it to class to call and let me know. No big deal. I have a student that is 10 minutes late due to work and travel distance, however that was told to me in the very beginning and they show up almost completely dressed out and make no haste towards "Jumping right in." when they arrive.

I am a combat vet that led troops into battle as a Sgt. of Marines, so I ask you to not say something to the effect of "I give extra time because it is my job as an instructor." I am retired from work because of my medical responsibilities that I have to maintain just to keep me going. *Thank you Carol for pointing that out.*

If you haven't led troops into combat where you were responsible for other's lives then you don't know what "Hard or going the extra mile really is." Sorry just my opinion.

So after telling me "I didn't answer your call because I just didn't feel like it" and then in a raised tone told the GM of the org. I am only here for hapkido, I don't care about Tae Kwon Do it's bullcrap." I mean gee GM accepted this guy into the school in St. L out of good faith. He has always done a lot for everyone in the school for several years. I have never, ever, ever seen he or my father be so aggravated by a student before, red faced and genuinely angry. Both have very calm demeanors.

Everyone in the St. L school cross trains in something. Escrima, bo staff, knife, I am big on sword. It doesn't matter.....that is not the point. The point is that this person was a disrespectful liar. Not only to me but to the head of the org., my father and others.

So, I don't want a student in my Judo class nor a partner in hapkido that doesn't have integrity. Sorry, I am not a saint in any stretch of the imagination, however I will say things the way I see them no matter if you want to hear them or not.....but I do have integrity.

In the Marines that was the foundation of the establishment (Integrity), sorry I have strong convictions. How could I with good conscience go into combat with someone I couldn't trust? Not possible, so to me it is no different as an instructor. I can't teach or work with someone I can't trust. This isn't the first time something "Smelly" has arose so to speak this is just the icing on the cake that broke the last straw.

If GM doesn't want him in class, which is not the case then that is his business not mine. His school, I just instruct a class there. However, it is at my discretion as a 2nd dan in Judo, 2nd dan in MCMAP, and brown belt in hapkido who I will work with. Afterall I don't have to partner up with anyone whom I do not choose to.
Like I said earlier, my efforts are spent better on people who genuinely want my help out of sincerity, not just because it benefits them because I am better at something than them. I told my Judo students a few years back when I began my class. "Class welcome, 1st of all Judo is hard but fun so falling will be our favorite thing. Secondly, my belt is black because I have been doing this for longer than you, that is all. Work hard and you will be a dan one day. Never hesithitate to ask a question." Geez, last week we had a class based solely on "I see these as your strong points, what do you think your weak points are or what do you want to review."
I had nothing but good hard training and honesty from the students.
Furthermore, it seems to me that the fellow in question is just wanting a black belt in a different style of hapkido just to have one so he can say he is a black belt. He is going to this other school to work another art, no problem but you know you should be loyal to your organization and the instructors who have attempted to help you. Gee, in the Marines if someone was even disloyal to their own room mate, squad, or unit. Well you don't want to know the reprecussions, you wouldn't believe me if I told you anyway. There is nothing cultish about loyalty and integrity. If you believe differently then you my friend need to do some real soul searching. Afterall, martial arts isn't really about techniques.....it is about everything else like honor, integrity, commitment, self respect, you know all those good fuzzy things about being a decent human being are really the root of the M.A.'s. Same with the Marine Corps, anyone can get in shape and fire a weapon, however without those decent human being qualitites I mentioned then it is worthless. Sorry, you may not agree and that is ok. Too each their own.
So again to all of you who have supported me thank you. It is greatly appreciated, Drac of all people know the situation best outside of the Moo Sul Kwan organization.
 
Kumbajah said:
Matt, I'm not discounting your feelings. I do disagree with you on the role and boundaries of an instructor. I hope you get some closure and you and he both get the help that you need.

Peace
Click to expand...

Oh, I didn't really need closure......I understood perfectly as the sky is blue. However, I guess I look at being an instructor no differently than I did my role as a combat leader Sgt. of Marines. Thank you for the nice sentiment and as noted above it is ok to disagree or not see things the same way. I wore a uniform and fought and watched people die for the piece of paper that gives Americans that right.
 
Ok, I misunderstood your need to post then. If there is no problem, there's no need for resolution. I think if you convey to your students that your view is they are under your command it might make things clearer for them and you might avoid similar situations.

Best of luck,
 
I don't look at it as "They are under my command". However, if I give you 100 percent I just think it is just common courtesy to do the same in return. For instance, I know nothing about fixing cars. A few weeks ago I needed a repair done on my auto. It was cold as the dickens outside, I have horrible arthritis but stayed with my friend outside while he worked on my auto.

A few days ago the same guy came by with the intentions of making a shadow box for his brother whom just been discharged from the Marines. It seems his brother is the proud owner of a Non Commissioned Officers sword and he needed the dimensions. So, even though I don't own one I got a hold of a friend who does. The owner of the sword came over without being asked, we got the precise dimensions. In turn I gave some extra wood I have along with some beveled glass along with some Marine Corps memoribillia and showed him how to put a ribbon rack together for the shadow box. I did this all just because this guy changed the distrubitor cap on my car for free. My other friend brought the sword to my home just because of the good ole comradiere that Marines share.

See a resembleance here? I helped the person doing the repair the best I could while being helpful because he was nice enough to help me.

These are lessons of basic morality.
 
He's paying for lessons - no? There is a difference in the relationship. In a commercial school he is paying for a service that you provide. He could stand to learn to be more courteous. He does sound as if he training hard. ( going to two schools and two arts, etc)

Courtesy is needed for all human interactions. A driving instructor provides more pragmatic skills in the realm of life protection skills and the relationship isn't saddled with command chain trappings. Again just imo. Not everyone brings the same ideas to the relationship as you may and since you are providing a service to a customer you may want to keep it mind.
 
Kumbajah, I assume you are neither an instructor nor run a club or school. The relationship between an instructor and his students in martial arts is not like just providing a service. For the good instructors theres many things involved, compassion, honour and responsibilty. It's more than a transaction for cash, you give students a part albeit maybe a small part of you. To be treated the way Matt has by a student is indeed a betrayal.

If all you have experienced in martial arts is a customer experience then you have missed one of the most amazing things about martial arts and I'm sorry for it.

Matt, keep your chin up ( as we say in Britland!) keep posting and know we are here for you ! And yes....HUGS! :)
 
I know that there is a camaraderie that forms around people sharing the same activity. It happens in every shared activity from a book club to martial arts. Any student / teacher relationship there is a transfer of self. If both are sincere it happens with both parties. Compassion is also part of all teaching even if comes in the form of tough love. Again this isn't unique to martial arts. To assume that martial arts are unique in this way is mistaken. Many (most) of us have a coach or teacher that we feel a bond and are indebted to. It doesn't extend to every single one.

To assume that every person signing up for strip mall karate is doing so to become part of a brotherhood is mistaken. Some just look at it as interesting hobby. They aren't looking to pay to have the privilege of being indebted to a group or indulge in the fantasy that they are part of some ancient asian clan. They are paying for martial arts instruction.

All I'm saying thats Matt's expectations aren't always the expectations of his clients. If Matt feels the need to rap his martial arts in a Corps mentality maybe he should do it in a non-commercial setting. In a commercial setting he needs to be cognizant and respectful of his clients expectations or there will be no clients.

To deny or ignore the commercial nature of the interaction is delusional -imo. Look at any other commercial interaction that you may have during a day - does the grocery store say you can't go to anther one. Is it disrespectful want to buy one product and not another. I personally won't go and tell my grocer that his tomatoes are BS but I'm not forced to buy them either if all I want is a banana.
 
Kumbajah said:
I know that there is a camaraderie that forms around people sharing the same activity. It happens in every shared activity from a book club to martial arts. Any student / teacher relationship there is a transfer of self. If both are sincere it happens with both parties. Compassion is also part of all teaching even if comes in the form of tough love. Again this isn't unique to martial arts. To assume that martial arts are unique in this way is mistaken. Many (most) of us have a coach or teacher that we feel a bond and are indebted to. It doesn't extend to every single one.

To assume that every person signing up for strip mall karate is doing so to become part of a brotherhood is mistaken. Some just look at it as interesting hobby. They aren't looking to pay to have the privilege of being indebted to a group or indulge in the fantasy that they are part of some ancient asian clan. They are paying for martial arts instruction.

All I'm saying thats Matt's expectations aren't always the expectations of his clients. If Matt feels the need to rap his martial arts in a Corps mentality maybe he should do it in a non-commercial setting. In a commercial setting he needs to be cognizant and respectful of his clients expectations or there will be no clients.

To deny or ignore the commercial nature of the interaction is delusional -imo. Look at any other commercial interaction that you may have during a day - does the grocery store say you can't go to anther one. Is it disrespectful want to buy one product and not another. I personally won't go and tell my grocer that his tomatoes are BS but I'm not forced to buy them either if all I want is a banana.
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My club isn't a commercial one, we don't do it for the money, we are also a military club thugh civilians are welcome so your analogy doesn't apply to my club I'm afraid. You don't know how Matt's club is run either so your points are really conjecture at this juncture.
 
Actually the schools website does provide quite a bit of information :) I also missed the part where the discussion switched to your club.
 
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