What Percentage of People Have Achieved the Rank of Shodan or Equivalent?

[Steve]

I heard from a guy who read a quote from a movie in a book published on the internet that 60% of the time, it works every time. They've done studies, you know.

 

[wab25]

I think you just hijacked the OP's legitimate question.

As I stated before... my intent was not to hijack the thread.

These two questions are different:
1. How many people have trained martial arts enough to earn a black belt?
2. How many people have trained martial arts enough that it would help them in a real fight on the street?

Unfortunately, those are two different questions. We have schools turning out black belts by the masses, all to people who have yet to put a second digit in their age column. There are schools and organizations that train this stuff for health and well being... nothing wrong with this at all, as long as you don't think it translates to fighting off the mugger with a knife.

In the OP, he started by talking about the probability of running into a common thug with martial arts training... in this context, I went with trying to establish what was needed to answer question #2 above. First, he clarified that he did not care about #2, but only wanted the answer for #1. Which is when I apologized and stepped out of the thread. Then he came back, and clarified again, that he wanted to know how many people had done "a meaningful amount" of martial arts training. Thats when I came back in to find out what he meant by "meaningful." Certainly, for many people they do this stuff, because it gets them off the couch and doing some kind of movement, and they find this meaningful. Nothing wrong with this at all. Others may enjoy the social aspect... this again, can be very meaningful to people... as can winning kata tournaments with musical kata...

But, if by "meaningful amount of training" he is talking about training in martial arts in a way that will help you when you meet that common street thug, that he brought up in the OP, then simply asking about who has a black belt... won't get him the answer he wants.

 

[Rusty B]

But, if by "meaningful amount of training" he is talking about training in martial arts in a way that will help you when you meet that common street thug, that he brought up in the OP, then simply asking about who has a black belt... won't get him the answer he wants.

Okay, I'm going to clarify this as best as I can:

The original question was "shodan" or equivalent. @skribs brought up BJJ purple belts as exception, and I'm sure there are others... but the general idea is supposed to be "shodan" or equivalent rank.

Obviously, if you made gold belt and quit... I'm not worried about you as a fighter. I mean, there may be other reasons I should be worried, but the gold belt isn't one of them.

@isshinryuronin insinuates that you SHOULD be worried about other people having martial arts training (something that, if you're paying attention, I vehemently disagree with myself); as he states that martial arts that update to meet the requirements of "modern street fighting" take this into consideration.

So IF we're going to take other people's martial arts training into consideration (again, I'M not saying that we should. I'm merely going along with that argument); at what level is it going to be? If you ask the average person, they're going to say black belt. I'll even consider that some may even say brown, but generally, it's going to be black.

I seriously doubt you're going to scare anyone off by saying "Watch out, I've got a green belt in (insert non-BJJ martial art here)."

 

[Steve]

Okay, I'm going to clarify this as best as I can:

The original question was "shodan" or equivalent. @skribs brought up BJJ purple belts as exception, and I'm sure there are others... but the general idea is supposed to be "shodan" or equivalent rank.

Obviously, if you made gold belt and quit... I'm not worried about you as a fighter. I mean, there may be other reasons I should be worried, but the gold belt isn't one of them.

@isshinryuronin insinuates that you SHOULD be worried about other people having martial arts training (something that, if you're paying attention, I vehemently disagree with myself); as he states that martial arts that update to meet the requirements of "modern street fighting" take this into consideration.

So IF we're going to take other people's martial arts training into consideration (again, I'M not saying that we should. I'm merely going along with that argument); at what level is it going to be? If you ask the average person, they're going to say black belt. I'll even consider that some may even say brown, but generally, it's going to be black.

I seriously doubt you're going to scare anyone off by saying "Watch out, I've got a green belt in (insert non-BJJ martial art here)."

Well, as I said before, if you're training for self defense, you should presume that if you get into an altercation with someone, they are better trained than you and act accordingly. What that actually translates to as far as training goes will vary depending upon the sales pitch of the school trying to get your money. In my opinion.

 

[isshinryuronin]

ultimately you should always assume they know how to fight or have some sort of advantage

I think this is the bottom line for much of the discussion we are having on this and the related kenpo thread. Whether the opponent is a drunken Okinawan rice farmer in 1850, or a modern gang member who trains with his buddies in some PMA knife techniques, you should take nothing for granted and always be on guard and aware of possible angles of attack. You just never initially know who you are up against.

 

[Rusty B]

I think this is the bottom line for much of the discussion we are having on this and the related kenpo thread. Whether the opponent is a drunken Okinawan rice farmer in 1850, or a modern gang member who trains with his buddies in some PMA knife techniques, you should take nothing for granted and always be on guard and aware of possible angles of attack. You just never initially know who you are up against.

Does this mean that you're abandoning your claim that there are things that one would encounter in self-defense scenario today that they wouldn't have encountered a century ago?

 

[Buka]

Does this mean that you're abandoning your claim that there are things that one would encounter in self-defense scenario today that they wouldn't have encountered a century ago?

Probably not as many carjackings back then as there are now.

 

[Rusty B]

Probably not as many carjackings back then as there are now.

I don't know the stats, but if I was a betting man, I'd say that quite a few Model T's and/or whatever else was out at the time have been taken from people at gunpoint.

Surely, if a gun-slingin' outlaw from the Old West can hijack a train; a car was no problem.

 

[dvcochran]

Do you have a site , book, magazine that lists these numbers? I am really curious and would be interested in reading anything you could provide.

I believe the last place I saw the stats was on the CDC site.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Does this mean that you're abandoning your claim that there are things that one would encounter in self-defense scenario today that they wouldn't have encountered a century ago?

I really think you are confusing me with someone else as you continually ascribe things to me I have not said (you've done this 5 or 6 times on this thread without supplying supporting quotes), or you just have your head on backwards.

My only claim is that, due to the greater awareness and info re: MA available to the public, there is greater opportunity for people to have been exposed to MA methods and techniques. I have no idea what your agenda is, but please do not include me in your fantasies.

 

[Rusty B]

I really think you are confusing me with someone else as you continually ascribe things to me I have not said (you've done this 5 or 6 times on this thread without supplying supporting quotes), or you just have your head on backwards.

My only claim is that, due to the greater awareness and info re: MA available to the public, there is greater opportunity for people to have been exposed to MA methods and techniques. I have no idea what your agenda is, but please do not include me in your fantasies.

Bro, this came straight from YOU:

The difference is this - Back in the old days, martial arts was not generally taught to thugs and other commoners, so few had any formal fighting instruction. Additionally, there were no movies, YouTube, or TV, so even this informal instruction was not available. Nowadays, more of those one might have to fight have access to seeing and learning fighting techniques and have the ability to practice them at a school or home or gang crib. Therefore, a higher percentage of potential attackers have martial training and ability than in the past. Kenpo is a quick, efficient style that has the capability of handling this situation, as do several other styles. Of course, as often previously discussed, the individual's skill and fighting spirit are paramount.

The way I see it, the only way for you to get your foot out of your mouth is to rescind some claims.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go watch the video of Robbie Knievel jumping the Grand Canyon, then go do it myself.

 

[Buka]

I don't know the stats, but if I was a betting man, I'd say that quite a few Model T's and/or whatever else was out at the time have been taken from people at gunpoint.

Surely, if a gun-slingin' outlaw from the Old West can hijack a train; a car was no problem.

Rusty B, how long have you been training Martial Arts?

 

[Rusty B]

Rusty B, how long have you been training Martial Arts?

A year. I thought most of you knew that.

However, if that's going to be used as a basis to say that I can't call BS on claims that "this martial art is more suited for modern day street fighting than other popular martial arts," I'm fully prepared to engage in a knock-down drag-out dragout in this tread. Won't be my first at MT.

By the way, if watching movies counts as "informal training" - as stated by @isshinryuronin - then 37 years. I was watching Kung Fu Theater on the USA Network at the age of 4.

I guess that means all martial arts are ineffective against me, unless one has trained in a martial that has been "updated for modern day street fighting." After all, all those other martial arts came out before the TV was invented.

 

[Steve]

A year. I thought most of you knew that.

However, if that's going to be used as a basis to say that I can't call BS on claims that "this martial art is more suited for modern day street fighting than other popular martial arts," I'm fully prepared to engage in a knock-down drag-out dragout in this tread. Won't be my first at MT.

By the way, if watching movies counts as "informal training" - as stated by @isshinryuronin - then 37 years. I was watching Kung Fu Theater on the USA Network at the age of 4.

I guess that means all martial arts are ineffective against me, unless one has trained in a martial that has been "updated for modern day street fighting." After all, all those other martial arts came out before the TV was invented.

I loved Kung Fu Theater on the USA network. Watched it every Sunday, IIRC.

 

[Flying Crane]

A year. I thought most of you knew that.

However, if that's going to be used as a basis to say that I can't call BS on claims that "this martial art is more suited for modern day street fighting than other popular martial arts," I'm fully prepared to engage in a knock-down drag-out dragout in this tread. Won't be my first at MT.

By the way, if watching movies counts as "informal training" - as stated by @isshinryuronin - then 37 years. I was watching Kung Fu Theater on the USA Network at the age of 4.

I guess that means all martial arts are ineffective against me, unless one has trained in a martial that has been "updated for modern day street fighting." After all, all those other martial arts came out before the TV was invented.

That’s quite an answer to what was a pretty simple question.

 

[isshinryuronin]

By the way, if watching movies counts as "informal training" - as stated by @isshinryuronin

.
Once again, you prove you need to practice your reading skills by misquoting me. Movies, TV and YouTube instruction videos exposes one to MA techniques, but are useless unless it is practiced. You conveniently left off the "practice" part. Only a fool would equate watching a movie as training in MA.

A year. I thought most of you knew that.

A whole year training in martial arts! I didn't know that - No wonder you are a veritable encyclopedia of MA knowledge. Since you're out of my league, I better stop responding to your posts.

 

[Rusty B]

That’s quite an answer to what was a pretty simple question.

That's because I'm suspicious of the motive behind the question.

 

[Rusty B]

.
Once again, you prove you need to practice your reading skills by misquoting me. Movies, TV and YouTube instruction videos exposes one to MA techniques, but are useless unless it is practiced. You conveniently left off the "practice" part. Only a fool would equate watching a movie as training in MA.

So if a guy watches the Karate Kid series and practices the crane kick, the drum punch, and the wax on/wax off; he's gonna be a dangerous guy?

Bro, there's no possible spin you can put on your claim to make it not sound stupid.

A whole year training in martial arts! I didn't know that - No wonder you are a veritable encyclopedia of MA knowledge. Since you're out of my league, I better stop responding to your posts.

Yet, you've trained for decades and believe people can become martial artists from watching TV. One need not have ever stepped foot into a dojo to to find this suggestion utterly ridiculous.

Furthermore, let's say you are correct. How many thugs - or even people in general - are using their living room with their TV playing Jean-Claude Van Damme movies as a dojo?

 

[Rusty B]

It just occurred to me - I'm an 80's and early 90's kid, and back then, martial arts movies were all the rage.

And it was always the real dorky kids that have attempted to mimic what they saw in these movies, if they ever found themselves in a situation where they were confronted by a bully.

Some of these kids in my neighborhood, I would see them "playing karate" with their friends; so they were definitely "practicing."

Anyhow, I don't think I need to tell you how it worked out for them.

 

[punisher73]

Probably not as many carjackings back then as there are now.

Just to stir the pot, more carriage and wagon robberies though.