To those who don't care about belt rank

[Kong Soo Do]

That is not the best analogy. A better analogy would be if the military got rid of rank. That would be the equivalent of a martial arts school getting rid of belts.

I don't want to sound like I'm continually jumping on your comments, but I don't agree with this comment either. The military has a uniform, standardized ranking structure. If you are in the Air Force for example, you fall under the same standards for promotion in Tampa as you do in Turkey. For example, you need to take a test within your specialty code. The test is the same regardless of where your stationed. Certain exceptions for accelerated promotion are in place, like the 'below the zone' from E3 to E4 but again, you have the same opportunity regardless of where you stationed.

It doesn't work like this in the martial arts. Even within the same organization or indeed the same school it can (and often does) differ. In KKW TKD, a Korean child can make first Dan in less than a year. Here in the states it can be two or three years. And it isn't because they're better. It's just that way. And from art to art it becomes an even bigger problem.

If you walk into my school and I see your BB, well it means nothing. That isn't a flame or insult, just being factual. The fact that you have a black belt could mean you're hard core or it could mean you attended a weekend at someone's school and your check cleared. I won't know which until I see you perform. If I go to someone else's school I don't expect them to be awed by my belt. I expect what I have to offer to speak for itself.

Thus maybe your belt has some sort of meaning within the confines of your school, and that's fine. But once you step out of the door it is a piece of colored cloth to stick in the work out bag until you come back. Nothing more. It's main purpose is to hold your top together.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Why is it wrong not to worry about the belt? Focus on the Skill and the belts will come. As you said in some cases belts dont = Skill

Focusing on the skills will only get you belts if you are focusing on them the right way. You have to work hard but you also have to know what you're doing. I know of students who studied really hard in academics for tests in school and still didn't get As because they weren't studying the right way, or they weren't getting the material. You could say, don't worry about grades, focus on the knowledge and the material and the As will come, but it doesn't always work like that.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Just for the record, and not wanting to derail, but in Traditional Chinese Martial Arts there are no belt ranks.

Sometimes there isn't and sometimes there is. I've been to kung fu classes that have incorporated a ranking system based on sash colors.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Focusing on the skills will only get you belts if you are focusing on them the right way. You have to work hard but you also have to know what you're doing. I know of students who studied really hard in academics for tests in school and still didn't get As because they weren't studying the right way, or they weren't getting the material. You could say, don't worry about grades, focus on the knowledge and the material and the As will come, but it doesn't always work like that.

Yes, it does. If you're tested and know the material, you will pass. If you have an exemplary understanding of the material, you will get an "A" if it's that sort of test. You cannot pass a test if you lack the knowledge or skills it covers.

It really is that simple.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Neither would I. Of course, this means, doing research and making sure the person you're training under isn't a joke. How many people actually take the time to do this?

Its really easy to do research to see if a person you want to train under isn't a joke. What I do is I observe a class and I observe the performance of the black belts and other high belts and if their performance sucks than I know that their instructor is a joke.

 

[donald1]

Sometimes there isn't and sometimes there is. I've been to kung fu classes that have incorporated a ranking system based on sash colors.

I've seen some of those sashes that is true, and the people who had black sashes knew some really long forms (i think one had at least 108 steps) and they were serious and knew what they were doing. Yet that was from training a belt may give the wearer feel confident and it shows that a specific style has recognized they are at a certain skill level but that is all. However a belt may seem meaningful it will never be equal to skill level (not even by a long shot)

You stand for what you believe in and that is worthy of respect but without skill a belt is only good for holding up pants

 

[PhotonGuy]

I don't want to sound like I'm continually jumping on your comments, but I don't agree with this comment either. The military has a uniform, standardized ranking structure. If you are in the Air Force for example, you fall under the same standards for promotion in Tampa as you do in Turkey. For example, you need to take a test within your specialty code. The test is the same regardless of where your stationed. Certain exceptions for accelerated promotion are in place, like the 'below the zone' from E3 to E4 but again, you have the same opportunity regardless of where you stationed.

It doesn't work like this in the martial arts. Even within the same organization or indeed the same school it can (and often does) differ. In KKW TKD, a Korean child can make first Dan in less than a year. Here in the states it can be two or three years. And it isn't because they're better. It's just that way. And from art to art it becomes an even bigger problem.

If you walk into my school and I see your BB, well it means nothing. That isn't a flame or insult, just being factual. The fact that you have a black belt could mean you're hard core or it could mean you attended a weekend at someone's school and your check cleared. I won't know which until I see you perform. If I go to someone else's school I don't expect them to be awed by my belt. I expect what I have to offer to speak for itself.

Thus maybe your belt has some sort of meaning within the confines of your school, and that's fine. But once you step out of the door it is a piece of colored cloth to stick in the work out bag until you come back. Nothing more. It's main purpose is to hold your top together.

A black belt at my dojo does mean something. Getting a black belt at my dojo is hard. To earn a black belt at my dojo means you've achieved a hard goal. You're right that it is just colored cloth that you put in the bag until your next workout but the fact that you've earned it means something. It might mean nothing at your school but the fact of the matter is I know in my heart that I've earned it so it doesn't matter if it means nothing at other dojos. If I decide to cross train in some other style at some other dojo, starting as a white belt at that dojo is fine and as a matter of fact I get to experience the progression of going from belt to belt at that dojo now, but the fact remains that I know I achieved a black belt at my primary dojo, which is hard to do.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yes, it does. If you're tested and know the material, you will pass. If you have an exemplary understanding of the material, you will get an "A" if it's that sort of test. You cannot pass a test if you lack the knowledge or skills it covers.

It really is that simple.

Maybe you aren't studying the material right. For instance, I was very good at math and usually did well on the tests because I was good at studying math. With History, I was terrible. I wasn't good at studying the material in History and even after hard studying I still sometimes wouldn't do that well on tests. For that reason I would sometimes ask the teacher for help and for pointers on studying. The same can be done with martial arts, to ask your instructor for pointers on training and other stuff.

 

[drop bear]

Ranking and belt color have nothing to do with each other.

Sorry what?

 

[drop bear]

Yes there is...

And how does that equivalent work?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Maybe you aren't studying the material right.

Then you won't know the material.

For instance, I was very good at math and usually did well on the tests because I was good at studying math.

Then you knew the material.

With History, I was terrible. I wasn't good at studying the material in History and even after hard studying I still sometimes wouldn't do that well on tests. For that reason I would sometimes ask the teacher for help and for pointers on studying.

Then you didn't know the material.

The same can be done with martial arts, to ask your instructor for pointers on training and other stuff.

Yes. You can either know the material, or not.

And the color of the belt doesn't affect that at all.

See how simple it is? You either know it, or you don't.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

My replies within your quote are in black bold to make it easier to respond:

A black belt at my dojo does mean something.

It means something to you, in your school. And that is fine.

Getting a black belt at my dojo is hard. To earn a black belt at my dojo means you've achieved a hard goal.

That is subjective. What may be hard to you may be fluff to someone else. To be clear, I'm not saying you didn't work hard for you belt and my comment isn't to be taken as such. But it's just like body building (another pursuit for me), some folks thing they've had a hard workout and in reality it would only count as someone else's warm up.

As an example, Karl Gotch (RIP) of catch-as-catch-can-submission-wrestling wouldn't even train you until you could do 250 continuous Hindu push ups and 500 continuous Hindu squats. In other words you didn't even start at white belt (not that they used belts but as an example) until you could do those exercises. For us, our requirement is a 1-20-1 pyramid as PART of the BB test as well as Sanchin kata. I show a Sanchin BB test to some in the martial arts and they freak, not even mentioning the 1-20-1 pyramid! So 'hard' is subjective.

You're right that it is just colored cloth that you put in the bag until your next workout but the fact that you've earned it means something.

That it means something to you is fine. It is a personal experience.

It might mean nothing at your school but the fact of the matter is I know in my heart that I've earned it so it doesn't matter if it means nothing at other dojos. If I decide to cross train in some other style at some other dojo, starting as a white belt at that dojo is fine and as a matter of fact I get to experience the progression of going from belt to belt at that dojo now, but the fact remains that I know I achieved a black belt at my primary dojo, which is hard to do.

That's fine.

Now my question to you is simple: For those of us that really don't put a lot on belts (at all or anymore) but think our skill speaks for itself....are we still bumps on a log?

 

[ballen0351]

Sorry what?

World ranking of how good you are has nothing to do with your belt lvl. There are millions of guitar players only 1 Clapton. Just because you play don't mean your good. There are millions of black belts there are far less that are actually on the lvl to be world ranked. Same belt color far different skill lvl

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yes. You can either know the material, or not.

And the color of the belt doesn't affect that at all.

See how simple it is? You either know it, or you don't.

Its not so black and white. There are different degrees of knowing the material. Just like in school how they are different grades (A, B, C, D, F). If you get a B it means they know the material relatively well but not as good as if you get an A.

 

[drop bear]

World ranking of how good you are has nothing to do with your belt lvl. There are millions of guitar players only 1 Clapton. Just because you play don't mean your good. There are millions of black belts there are far less that are actually on the lvl to be world ranked. Same belt color far different skill lvl

Ranked by the same organisation or different ones?

Are big people more skilled than little ones? because they seem to do better on the mat.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

At the WT school I attend we have 12 student levels and for comparison purposes level 12 is described as the equivalent to BB in other arts.

However instead of using coloured belts to denote rank they use different coloured plum blossom badges, so for example grade 1 you get a black badge and grade 12 you get a gold badge.

There are also 12 master levels but you don't get a new badge for those levels.

My question to the people who like focusing on belts is: would you train at a school that used a similar system to this, and would you be as motivated to go for a gold flower as you would a black belt?

(Assuming you were happy with the art, style, instruction, price etc of course)

 

[ballen0351]

Ranked by the same organisation or different ones?

Are big people more skilled than little ones? because they seem to do better on the mat.

None of this has anything to do with belt color. Ranking and belt color have nothing to do with eachother. A back belt in my dojo means nothing in a TKD school or BJJ school or even another Goju Dojo unless it's affiliated with mine.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Its really easy to do research to see if a person you want to train under isn't a joke. What I do is I observe a class and I observe the performance of the black belts and other high belts and if their performance sucks than I know that their instructor is a joke.

If you are an experienced martial artist and looking for a change of art or school that is easy, if you are an absolute beginner then you might not know if the quality of teaching is good or not. The beginners who come to this school might have thought that it was good, after all they have a lot of students;

 

[Hand Sword]

It also has to do with the time put in. In connection, when I was younger I tried a few styles of M.A.. They just seem to connect with me at the time so I tried Kempo and I liked it. As the years go on, I don't see Kempo like that anymore. I tend to view Kata and the traditional styles more favorable. I hated kata forever. Point is, the journey will change you, from one end to another. As I said previously. It's all subjective. We all do and pursue what interests/ or motivates us at the moment. If it's belt advancement for someone, it provides the impetus to keep training. If it's passion, you keep training. Whatever it is, you keep training. So, in the end, it's all just personally preferenced tools that we all use for the job. None "right" ot "wrong," just different.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Getting a black belt at my dojo is hard. To earn a black belt at my dojo means you've achieved a hard goal.

That is subjective. What may be hard to you may be fluff to someone else. To be clear, I'm not saying you didn't work hard for you belt and my comment isn't to be taken as such. But it's just like body building (another pursuit for me), some folks thing they've had a hard workout and in reality it would only count as someone else's warm up.

As an example, Karl Gotch (RIP) of catch-as-catch-can-submission-wrestling wouldn't even train you until you could do 250 continuous Hindu push ups and 500 continuous Hindu squats. In other words you didn't even start at white belt (not that they used belts but as an example) until you could do those exercises. For us, our requirement is a 1-20-1 pyramid as PART of the BB test as well as Sanchin kata. I show a Sanchin BB test to some in the martial arts and they freak, not even mentioning the 1-20-1 pyramid! So 'hard' is subjective.

Its all relative. 250 Hindu pushups and 500 Hindu squats might be hard by some standards and Karl Gotch might be considered a tough trainer to require somebody to be able to do that before he will even start teaching them, but its not as hard as if somebody were to require 500 Hindu pushups and 1000 Hindu squats. But I do know this. Getting a black belt at my dojo is harder than getting it in most of the other dojos I've seen. I've been to many dojos, some I've trained at and some I've just visited to observe classes and have seen how the students perform including the high ranking students. My dojo has produced many tournament winners and has produced olympic gold medalists and has reached a certain degree of fame in the martial arts world. So getting a black belt at my dojo requires devotion and hard work, you are not going to get it handed to you or sold to you like it is in some dojos. Just like getting the Navy Trident is hard by just about any standards, and by that I mean earning it and not just buying it and pinning it to your shirt as some people do. It would be hard to say that it's subjective about the Navy Trident being hard to get.