What MUST be taught in a Self-Defense Course?

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm saying

So you are telling me that it is difficult to shoot someone that close? I think many people here are arguing simply to argue, people shoot people close range all of the time. More than often without any kind of formal training, I recall a case in Florida where a woman shot her abusive husband, I doubt she spent any time at the shooting range.

How about all the gangs who shoot eachother on an almost weekly basis? Are they all training too? One of the very reasons a gun is such a powerful weapon is because possession of one can turn the weakest person into a large threat.

I'm saying that using a gun at all is a task best conducted with a modicum of skill. Even at close range, people miss...kind of a LOT.

And a single data point (the lady shooting her husband) doesn't provide useful evidence in and of itself, especially since we don't actually know whether she has had any experience or not. My first wife had more "rounds fired" than almost anyone I knew at the time other than myself.

And, yes, it can turn a weak person into a threat. It can also make them dangerous to themselves and others if used poorly. And if deployed when it can't be used effectively (in the middle of an attack), it can easily end up in the hands of the attacker.

 

[Ironbear24]

I'm saying

I'm saying that using a gun at all is a task best conducted with a modicum of skill. Even at close range, people miss...kind of a LOT.

And a single data point (the lady shooting her husband) doesn't provide useful evidence in and of itself, especially since we don't actually know whether she has had any experience or not. My first wife had more "rounds fired" than almost anyone I knew at the time other than myself.

And, yes, it can turn a weak person into a threat. It can also make them dangerous to themselves and others if used poorly. And if deployed when it can't be used effectively (in the middle of an attack), it can easily end up in the hands of the attacker.

Easily? I don't know about that, not everyone knows what to do against a gun, the majority of people are going to panic at the sight of the gun.

 

[oftheherd1]

I know plenty about the firearms I have used and been around. Just because someone says something you don't want to hear doesn't mean they are totally ignorant on the subject. I have never used fully automatic weapons though because I have no reason to and no desire too. So as far as those go I have no experience with.

So what is your experience with hand guns, shotguns, and sniper rifles? What firearms have you used?

Actually, you don't have to answer. You have pretty well shown your knowledge of firearms already.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Easily? I don't know about that, not everyone knows what to do against a gun, the majority of people are going to panic at the sight of the gun.

If they're already attacking, then they are in range to lay hands on it and the other person is already dealing with a dump of fear reactions. If the person with the gun doesn't have training to help with retention, the advantage goes to the guy whose hands aren't tied up trying to get the gun out of the holster.

 

[wingchun100]

What is that one rule I heard about...the 21 foot rule or something like that? If your gun isn't already drawn and an attacker is within 21 feet, you might not have the upper hand. Victory does not automatically go toward the person with the gun.

 

[MI_martialist]

Yes, and you never clarified that condescending remark by providing any sort of framework to support your assertion that it could be feasibly accomplished. That omission leaves me with no evidence besides my own experience, which tells me trying to teach even a single weapon in an hour to a group with no foundation training is destined for failure. And let's be clear, with introductions and questions folks will have, you're going to have little more than an hour for the actual physical training.

It really is not condescending...just an observation that seems to have been validated by how everyone has taken what I said.

I clarified that nothing should be taught, and I laid out the format before...move and hit, hit and move, move and hit, hit and move...all in a chaotic environment that is a close to a real environment as possible.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It really is not condescending...just an observation that seems to have been validated by how everyone has taken what I said.

I clarified that nothing should be taught, and I laid out the format before...move and hit, hit and move, move and hit, hit and move...all in a chaotic environment that is a close to a real environment as possible.

So, you're not going to teach them anything - just hand them a weapon and say "hit them"? What if they use the weapon ineffectually?

 

[MI_martialist]

So, you're not going to teach them anything - just hand them a weapon and say "hit them"? What if they use the weapon ineffectually?

When you teach, the learner must recall what has been taught and apply it to the situation. The whole recall process causes a delay in action, causes the learner to react or respond. The reaction, response, recall, delay all cost time, and in a confrontation, time is death.

Naturally occurring repetitive kinetic occurrences must be martialized so that the movements and actions are natural, and have already been done. We increase awareness so the trainee realizes that the movements they already know can and should be used for personal protection.

We p[rovide a few parameters, and to be honest, in the beginning...is anyone going to be accurate in their strikes? No, so instead of focusing on specific areas, we focus on general areas of the body...multiple, repeated strikes.

This is not instruction foreign to the person that must be integrated, but rather intrinsic induced déjà vu so the trainee is comfortable. This allows the trainee to have the confidence to act with success. If they have the will to act, when they have to act, they will.

 

[Ironbear24]

So what is your experience with hand guns, shotguns, and sniper rifles? What firearms have you used?

Actually, you don't have to answer. You have pretty well shown your knowledge of firearms already.

Then why even waste time asking me if you don't care about my answer? I used my friends guns when I lived in the mountains, it was one of the most boring experiences in my life and all we had to do was shoot things.

He had lots of guns, I'd say an alarming level of them so he'd loan me one of them when we went shooting old computer parts and televisions from the shop. I used some 40 caliber Glock and some 12 guage pump shotgun.

I can't tell you the model number or the manufacturer but I can tell you they were not difficult to use, let alone hit something close up.

 

[Ironbear24]

What is that one rule I heard about...the 21 foot rule or something like that? If your gun isn't already drawn and an attacker is within 21 feet, you might not have the upper hand. Victory does not automatically go toward the person with the gun.

That's if the attacker is in a full sprint and the gun is safetied and holstered.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When you teach, the learner must recall what has been taught and apply it to the situation. The whole recall process causes a delay in action, causes the learner to react or respond. The reaction, response, recall, delay all cost time, and in a confrontation, time is death.

Naturally occurring repetitive kinetic occurrences must be martialized so that the movements and actions are natural, and have already been done. We increase awareness so the trainee realizes that the movements they already know can and should be used for personal protection.

We p[rovide a few parameters, and to be honest, in the beginning...is anyone going to be accurate in their strikes? No, so instead of focusing on specific areas, we focus on general areas of the body...multiple, repeated strikes.

This is not instruction foreign to the person that must be integrated, but rather intrinsic induced déjà vu so the trainee is comfortable. This allows the trainee to have the confidence to act with success. If they have the will to act, when they have to act, they will.

You are still talking about teaching them a new movement, call it what you will. Most of your attendees will not have some intrinsic skill at hitting with a weapon (much less several weapons), so I'm not sure what existing movement you're expecting to draw on that would require no new learning.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's if the attacker is in a full sprint and the gun is safetied and holstered.

Actually, it's a static start. So, both are standing still, and the attacker charges. And, yes, it assumes the gun is holstered, because we can't walk around with out guns drawn in anticipation of an attack. That's the point I'm making - drawing a gun during an attack is highly problematic.

I read a while back that the FBI had revised this to a 30-foot safe range, though I don't know the practical application of that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Then why even waste time asking me if you don't care about my answer? I used my friends guns when I lived in the mountains, it was one of the most boring experiences in my life and all we had to do was shoot things.

He had lots of guns, I'd say an alarming level of them so he'd loan me one of them when we went shooting old computer parts and televisions from the shop. I used some 40 caliber Glock and some 12 guage pump shotgun.

I can't tell you the model number or the manufacturer but I can tell you they were not difficult to use, let alone hit something close up.

And they weren't moving, threatening you, or doing anything else to make hitting them (or even handling the gun) difficult.

 

[MI_martialist]

You are still talking about teaching them a new movement, call it what you will. Most of your attendees will not have some intrinsic skill at hitting with a weapon (much less several weapons), so I'm not sure what existing movement you're expecting to draw on that would require no new learning.

No...all movement has already pretty much been done...take movements they are familiar with (putting on glasses, pushing open a door, etc.) and martialize that movement by expanding their awareness that movement is movement and the intent of the movement can be adjusted to appropriately fit the need.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No...all movement has already pretty much been done...take movements they are familiar with (putting on glasses, pushing open a door, etc.) and martialize that movement by expanding their awareness that movement is movement and the intent of the movement can be adjusted to appropriately fit the need.

So, you're claiming that in about 90 minutes, you can change "putting on glasses" into an effective, repeatable strike with more than one weapon? I find that extremely unlikely.

Tell me again about the assumptions I'm making.

 

[MI_martialist]

So, you're claiming that in about 90 minutes, you can change "putting on glasses" into an effective, repeatable strike with more than one weapon? I find that extremely unlikely.

Tell me again about the assumptions I'm making.

Well, I did not say that this particular movement is an effective repeatable strike...it is about martializing all movement...your assumption is that you think basic enough when you do not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, I did not say that this particular movement is an effective repeatable strike...it is about martializing all movement...your assumption is that you think basic enough when you do not.

Your assumption is that I do not.

I teach people to use existing movements (what you term "martializing" - I like that term!). They do not adapt them quickly unless they have prior training. If you add something like a weapon they don't know how to use, their adaptation is even slower.

 

[MI_martialist]

Your assumption is that I do not.

I teach people to use existing movements (what you term "martializing" - I like that term!). They do not adapt them quickly unless they have prior training. If you add something like a weapon they don't know how to use, their adaptation is even slower.

Our combined experience is the exact opposite...in fact...we provided personal protection training for a corporate client and within a few weeks, one of the attendees had to protect herself...she picked up the curling iron and used it in the exact way she used other weapons during training...90 minutes of training literally saved her.

If you take someone, give them permission to succeed, make all movement and all hitting a success, they will be successful. DO that by putting a pen, or flashlight, or stick in their hand..have them repeatedly hit anatomically correct torso targets...have them move and hit...it is natural for them to do...once they get over the societal conditioning that has taken over their survival instinct...once they get over that (and it is very quick when you set the stage for them), the shine in their performance.

If we forget about teaching technique and focus on awakening their will to fight and survive, that is the first thing that is needed...after all, we can teach all of the stuff we want, but if they don't act, it will do no good.

Get the trainees to act...to fight...

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's if the attacker is in a full sprint and the gun is safetied and holstered.

Holstered, standing start, safety irrelevant, since the most popular carry guns don't even have a thumb safety.
As with most things of this sort, the 21' rule is more a guideline than a rule; there are waaayyyy too many variables to pretend it's a one-size-fits-all answer.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Our combined experience is the exact opposite...in fact...we provided personal protection training for a corporate client and within a few weeks, one of the attendees had to protect herself...she picked up the curling iron and used it in the exact way she used other weapons during training...90 minutes of training literally saved her.

If you take someone, give them permission to succeed, make all movement and all hitting a success, they will be successful. DO that by putting a pen, or flashlight, or stick in their hand..have them repeatedly hit anatomically correct torso targets...have them move and hit...it is natural for them to do...once they get over the societal conditioning that has taken over their survival instinct...once they get over that (and it is very quick when you set the stage for them), the shine in their performance.

If we forget about teaching technique and focus on awakening their will to fight and survive, that is the first thing that is needed...after all, we can teach all of the stuff we want, but if they don't act, it will do no good.

Get the trainees to act...to fight...

You are using examples of motivated clients. I could relate literally dozens of examples of students who, when starting, couldn't bring themselves to deliver a strike with or without a weapon with any force that would be more than distracting.

You're assuming a room full of folks attending a 2-hour self-defense workshop will be like your client who feels threatened enough to hire personal security. Those are two entirely different audiences.