What Makes Someone Worthy Of A High Dan?

[KenpoOG]

I have had this conversation with many people over the years. I think that rank is handed out WAT too quickly these days. Fact is when I was a kid, I was told that rank is one of those things that you just dont expect to get. There were no black belts before the age of 18. PERIOD. 10th degree was reserved ONLY for the founder of a largely recognized style ( Not Rex-kwando LOL) or the oldest son of a founder after the founder died. Kano, Helio Gracie etc.

I think that to advance beyond say 4th, you have to have put in a LOT of years into the art, and made contributions to the community and society beyond the schools doors. To be recognized by the COMMUNITY, not just the martial arts community is key. I saw a 30 year old sixth degree once. I had to visibly not roll my eyes. My father is 6th, and he has 42 years logged in the martial arts and counting. I think that searching for rank is what is polluting martial arts as a whole and Kenpo in particular. Too many belt chasers. I say for the legitimate, largely recognized keepers of an art, Ernesto Presas, Rorian Gracie, and the like should be in charge of awarding advanced rank. the rest of us should just be content that we have found an awesome thing and get to do it. Godspeed and lets go train!

 

[Mills Crenshaw]

In the process of forming the IKKA, Ed Parker stated that any rank above 5th Degree was "Honorary." That did NOT mean that there was no improvement in physical skill or knowledge. It indicated that that there must be a component over and above skill alone. Mastery of the art was essential; but the ability to teach, motivate, and create weighed heavily in his thinking. At the time of his death, the highest rank he had awarded was 7th Degree Black.

Lost in this discussion is the fact that higher rank could not be "self awarded." The individual must be asked, or nominated by a school or system head. Many of Parker's senior instructors "claimed" no higher rank or honors until "asked" or nominated by schools or systems that continued after Ed Parker's passing. Those honors were well earned. Then there are those who simply decided, for economic reasons, to promote themselves...

 

[yorkshirelad]

In the process of forming the IKKA, Ed Parker stated that any rank above 5th Degree was "Honorary." That did NOT mean that there was no improvement in physical skill or knowledge. It indicated that that there must be a component over and above skill alone. Mastery of the art was essential; but the ability to teach, motivate, and create weighed heavily in his thinking. At the time of his death, the highest rank he had awarded was 7th Degree Black.

Lost in this discussion is the fact that higher rank could not be "self awarded." The individual must be asked, or nominated by a school or system head. Many of Parker's senior instructors "claimed" no higher rank or honors until "asked" or nominated by schools or systems that continued after Ed Parker's passing. Those honors were well earned. Then there are those who simply decided, for economic reasons, to promote themselves...

What about Elvis! I thought he was promoted to 8th by Mr. Parker. I could be wrong. Who said that rank could not be self awarded? Mr. Parker awarded himself a 10th. Why shouldn't anyone just follow his lead?

 

[Doc]

What about Elvis! I thought he was promoted to 8th by Mr. Parker. I could be wrong. Who said that rank could not be self awarded? Mr. Parker awarded himself a 10th. Why shouldn't anyone just follow his lead?

While self promotion is common in the arts of all kind, most shake out the artistically fraudulent through performance evaluations of the end product. To this end, Mr. Parker was certainly deserved of whatever rank he might have chosen for himself, had he done so. His impact on American Karate in general, and his own many variations of Kenpo specifically are historically documented sir.

However, Mr. Parker's rank was not a matter of self-promotion. All of Mr. Parker's ranks were awarded by another of senior stature to his own, or by third party organizations and/or boards of credentials, and in some cases both. The late great Sijo Adriano Emperado awarded and/ or endorsed all of Mr. Parker's rank. And virtually every recognized organization of the time presented him with credentials of the highest rank. He literally had stacks of diplomas and certificates in his office file from Chinese, Japanese, and Korean organizations, as well as acknowledgements from the American, Chinese, and Indonesian Governments honoring him for that highest rank and his contributions.

 

[yorkshirelad]

While self promotion is common in the arts of all kind, most shake out the artistically fraudulent through performance evaluations of the end product. To this end, Mr. Parker was certainly deserved of whatever rank he might have chosen for himself, had he done so. His impact on American Karate in general, and his own many variations of Kenpo specifically are historically documented sir..

No doubt!!

However, Mr. Parker's rank was not a matter of self-promotion. All of Mr. Parker's ranks were awarded by another of senior stature to his own, or by third party organizations and/or boards of credentials, and in some cases both. The late great Sijo Adriano Emperado awarded and/ or endorsed all of Mr. Parker's rank. And virtually every recognized organization of the time presented him with credentials of the highest rank. He literally had stacks of diplomas and certificates in his office file from Chinese, Japanese, and Korean organizations, as well as acknowledgements from the American, Chinese, and Indonesian Governments honoring him for that highest rank and his contributions.

He may have endorsed his 10th, but did he give it to him? I'm not saying that Mr. parker wasn't legit, after all, noone could deny that Mr. parker was Kenpo. I'm sayin (as I've said umpteen times before) that there is no real standard for judging rank other than appreciating first hand what the person does.

In retrospect, I shouldn't of used Mr. Parker as an example. I'll use you if you don't mind. You accepted 10th from ATAMA. Why? presumably because you respect those in the association, and they in turn recognised your contributions to the Martial Arts. mr. Sullivan and Mr. La Reux created an organisation with certain by laws, that they held them selves to in order to progress to 10th. Mr. Tatum accepted the rank from his students, Mr. Cogliandro accepted the rank from someone outside his art, but who was still a cousin of EPAK. Are any of those ranks frauduent or void, some people may think so, but only the people with an ax to grind. In reality it's open season on ranking. Mr. Parker may have dropped the ball by not naming an heir. On the other hand, maybe this was his plan. Maybe he wanted all those first generation students to make their own way. If that was the case, he succeeded. Personally I don't know, unfortunately for me, I didn't know the man.

What do I know anyway. I haven't worn a belt to train in almost four years. I always wondered why my pants kept falling down. :rofl:

 

[Doc]

No doubt!!

He may have endorsed his 10th, but did he give it to him? I'm not saying that Mr. parker wasn't legit, after all, noone could deny that Mr. parker was Kenpo. I'm sayin (as I've said umpteen times before) that there is no real standard for judging rank other than appreciating first hand what the person does.

In retrospect, I shouldn't of used Mr. Parker as an example. I'll use you if you don't mind. You accepted 10th from ATAMA. Why? presumably because you respect those in the association, and they in turn recognised your contributions to the Martial Arts. mr. Sullivan and Mr. La Reux created an organisation with certain by laws, that they held them selves to in order to progress to 10th. Mr. Tatum accepted the rank from his students, Mr. Cogliandro accepted the rank from someone outside his art, but who was still a cousin of EPAK. Are any of those ranks frauduent or void, some people may think so, but only the people with an ax to grind. In reality it's open season on ranking. Mr. Parker may have dropped the ball by not naming an heir. On the other hand, maybe this was his plan. Maybe he wanted all those first generation students to make their own way. If that was the case, he succeeded. Personally I don't know, unfortunately for me, I didn't know the man.

What do I know anyway. I haven't worn a belt to train in almost four years. I always wondered why my pants kept falling down. :rofl:

Good point. For me personally, my motivation for the rank(s) were because it was originally at the recommendation of one of the founders of ATAMA, who was a senior Parker student, Sifu Ralph Castro, who presided over my 8th in person, along with JKA Hawaii Founder Edwin Hamile, who also founded the World Federation of Karate-do Organizations whose board awarded me a 9th, as well as other ranks, etc. While it was a privilege to be honored by my teachers peers, (which is in many ways more satisfying then my own peers), I choose to not wear any rank, nor do any of my students. It is more important to me to perform at your level, than to wear it.

 

[Mills Crenshaw]

Ed Parker did not "promote himself." The governing body of the IKKA, without Ed Parker's input, insisted that; as the creator and inovator of the modern, advanced style of Kenpo and as the head and Senior Master of the art, he accept the rank which he had earned by deeds and demonstrated excellence. It was felt that it was essential that he assume that leadership role. In all the years that followed we saw nothing that indicated such an award was unjustified. Many have self promoted themselves to 10th Degree Black Belt for selfish economic reasons...Ed Parker was not one of them.

(By way of information: Elvis' 8th Degree did not come through the IKKA)

 

[yorkshirelad]

Ed Parker did not "promote himself." The governing body of the IKKA, without Ed Parker's input, insisted that; as the creator and inovator of the modern, advanced style of Kenpo and as the head and Senior Master of the art, he accept the rank which he had earned by deeds and demonstrated excellence. It was felt that it was essential that he assume that leadership role. In all the years that followed we saw nothing that indicated such an award was unjustified. Many have self promoted themselves to 10th Degree Black Belt for selfish economic reasons...Ed Parker was not one of them.

(By way of information: Elvis' 8th Degree did not come through the IKKA)

I think Mr. Rebelo is probably eyeing this thread ready to pounce at any moment. I remember him recounting a tale of Mr. Parker being asked about how he knew it was time to don the 10th Degree (or something along those lines). His reply (and again, I'm paraphrasing) was, "I observed the standards of my peers, and ranked myself accordingly!" Now, if I'm wearing my 'Devil's advocate' cap, your above statement just implies that Mr. Parker's students ranked him. Many other masters have been scorned for this.
As far as I'm concerned there is nothing wrong with this. Mr. Parker created EPAK, although I believe he never used the term EPAK or American Kenpo, so he had the right to don any belt he wanted. There is no standard for ranking! Sam Kuoha had Mr. Chow's widow and Physician write him a reference for 10th. Ohtsuka of Wado ryu was ranked to 4th by Funokoshi and then the government awarded him his 10th (or at least sanctioned it). This would be like Obama awarding me a 10th, it sounds silly. Are these people considered 10th? Yes! Why? Because they say so, as Mr. Parker said so about himself.
Mr. Sullivan got the right idea when he created the by laws of the IKCA. The by laws have set rules for the attainment of rank long after Mr. Sullivan retires from his org.

I don't consider donning a 10th, especially as a senior Parker student selfish, even if it is for financial reasons. If someone teaches for a living, surely they want to have their business be as successful as possible. In advertising literature, surely it looks better to the prospective client if a 'master' is a 10th as opposed to a 7th.

I've never understood the distain some have for Martial Arts business men and full time teachers. I know a good few professional teachers and they are all noble men.

 

[MJS]

Awesome replies everyone! Keep 'em coming. :ultracool

So, to answer my own thread..lol....

2 of TFs posts caught my eye. The one where he mentioned having a track record of people tested under you, to BB. And of course, I also agree with the time frames for each BB level. The level that you're going for, you wait that many years in between your last rank.

IMO, I dont think it should be so much of a physical test. I mean, one would hope that by the time you're testing for 6th, 7th, 8th, even 9th, that you can perform the material. I do think though, that you should be giving back, ie: teaching, seminars, spreading the art, working with other seniors in the art and even other arts, etc.

Self promos....nope, not a fan of that.

 

[Wo Fat]

The "High Dan" horse has been out of the barn for years. That said, there have been several great responses to this question. To me, that suggests that there are people not of high rank, who have the right ideas about it.

Relative skill, ability and knowledge that can be demonstrated in any format or situation is at least one way to "demystify" high dan rank. Showing leadership in the art is a must. Not the "do as I say cuz I'm an 8th degree" bullying kind of leadership, but advancing and perpetuating and refining the art for those who will inherit it later. That kind of leadership.

In too many instances, those of high dan status are unwilling to lead--today--because they are unable to lead. This leaves a void to be filled by those who are mid-level (3rd through 5th dan). This created high dan figure heads and little more. And resentment followed shortly after.

Personally, I have publicly pledged not to declare or accept any degree higher than 5th. Period. That way I can stay focused on the arts.

 

[John Bishop]

The only rank that is of any value is the rank your students and peers believe you deserve, not the one you wear.
There are organizations all over the world that will award high ranks for money or just to build their membership. And then there are individuals who will just promote themselves.
Now days high rank is extremely easy to obtain. The respect of your students and peers is not.

 

[Doc]

The only rank that is of any value is the rank your students and peers believe you deserve, not the one you wear.
There are organizations all over the world that will award high ranks for money or just to build their membership. And then there are individuals who will just promote themselves.
Now days high rank is extremely easy to obtain. The respect of your students and peers is not.

Amen Brudda, and you don't need no stinkin stripes and bars for that.

 

[yorkshirelad]

The only rank that is of any value is the rank your students and peers believe you deserve, not the one you wear.
There are organizations all over the world that will award high ranks for money or just to build their membership. And then there are individuals who will just promote themselves.
Now days high rank is extremely easy to obtain. The respect of your students and peers is not.

This is very true! professor Chow would promote people after meeting them for a few days or weeks. He promoted many people to high ranks, presumably for financial reasons. I've often heard it said that these people took advantage of the Professor, but maybe the Professor took advantage of them. After all, a few hundred bucks for a piece of paper sounds like quite a rip off, but the certificate and a photo op can lend legitimacy to any Martial Artists business, and we know that the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.

My Hapkido teacher in Wicklow is a 9th Dan under Do Ju Nim, ji Han Jae, he began hapkido in 1992 and was 8th in 1999 when I graded to black. I believe he was 35 years old at the time. He was already a 4th in kyokushikai and an established kickboxer when he began Hapkido and Do Ju Nim was actively seeking international representatives at the time so his rank had obvious business motives, but he is a phenominal Martial Artist and has been loyal to Do Ju Nim since beginning his Hapkido studies.

Do Ju Nim recently ranked 3 people to 10th Dan. On of these men is European, one is American and one is Asian. Each of these men will carry the Sin Moo torch in their respective regions when Do Ju nim retires. The european guy in question began training in Hapkido in 1990. That's less than 21 years from nothing to 10th Black. Is he deserved? Yes! Why? Because he's a phenominal Martial Artist who has tirelessly carried the Hapkido torch.

I think the Kenpo community at large looks down on people who are a 10th. Especially the same design belt that Mr. Parker wore. I didn't know Mr. Parker, but it seems that he was unique in the sense that he exhibited all the characteristics that would make up a Martial arts Grandmaster; physically impressive, charismatic, creative, artistic, intelligent, tough. The best friend you could have, or the worse enemy. Maybe it would've been more apt for Mr. parker to have adopted the status of Mudan as Shioda Sensei was ranked by IMAF. That way his students could wear a 10th and not feel that they were in some way paralleling the rank of Mr. Parker.

Either way, like it or not 10ths are now a dime a dozen. There's no need to sweat it. Just train!

 

[Doc]

Either way, like it or not 10ths are now a dime a dozen. There's no need to sweat it. Just train!

If they are, it must be inflation. I thought they were cheaper than that. They were a dime a dozen, 15 years ago.

 

[Wo Fat]

... professor Chow would promote people after meeting them for a few days or weeks. He promoted many people to high ranks, presumably for financial reasons. I've often heard it said that these people took advantage of the Professor, but maybe the Professor took advantage of them. After all, a few hundred bucks for a piece of paper sounds like quite a rip off, but the certificate and a photo op can lend legitimacy to any Martial Artists business, and we know that the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.

You could substitute "Chow" for other legendary Kenpo names and have the same results: lineages established under a cloud of suspicion and questionable circumstances.

I'm forced to agree with Professor Bishop. Student and (and maybe a little) peer recognition are a good indicator of high rank legitimacy.

 

[OzPaul]

Please take what i say with a grain of salt. I am only an Orange belt in Kenpo and i find it quite amusing that we (adults) talk about if someone is deserving of rank or not. You would either have to be jealous or not happy with your own skill if you have enough time to think about what others are doing/have done. This is the biggest problem with Martial Arts... People look into the it's not the belt its the journey etc. story too much. Just keep training and you will become proficient in your skill. Sorry to be a little off topic or disrespectful but it is a bit depressing as a low belt in a Martial Art to read about people wondering why someone deserves a certain rank... seriously who gives a %^&*? Regards

 

[Wo Fat]

Please take what i say with a grain of salt. I am only an Orange belt in Kenpo and i find it quite amusing that we (adults) talk about if someone is deserving of rank or not. You would either have to be jealous or not happy with your own skill if you have enough time to think about what others are doing/have done. This is the biggest problem with Martial Arts... People look into the it's not the belt its the journey etc. story too much. Just keep training and you will become proficient in your skill. Sorry to be a little off topic or disrespectful but it is a bit depressing as a low belt in a Martial Art to read about people wondering why someone deserves a certain rank... seriously who gives a %^&*? Regards

No need to apologize. You're saying what many--especially those who are of senior rank--tend forget: that those who are coming up in the arts should be able to inherit more than politics and petty squabbles about rank and stature.

Please continue to train and learn. Develop a "green thumb" so that you can cultivate and grow the art to feed others who will come after you.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

All of the discussion about time in the art and seniority and skill are irrelevant.

There are only two legitimate criteria for high dans in Kenpo: age plus waist size.

The formula is simple: Dan <= (age+waistsize)*2/30. So, if you were 50 years old with a 40 inch waist, you would be a 6th degree. 60 with a 45 inch waist, 7th degree. 70 with a 50 inch waist, 8th degree. 80 with a 55 inch waist, 9th degree. Tenth degree should be reserved only for the very aged and morbidly obese.

 

[Buka]

This is a difficult subject. And even though I am not a Kenpo man this is a subject that transverses all martial arts.
I was friends with Ed Parker, he helped me a great deal. And anybody can say what they want about him but I'll tell you what, he was something else. And, man, could he FIGHT. And he was a really nice man.

I have known Tony Cogliandro since he was a kid.

George Pesare taught me as much about fighting as anyone.

To me &#8211;your name is your rank. How people that know you, fight with you, or train with you, how THEY respond to your name - tells all.

I wear a belt that has no stripes. Enscribed on it - &#38542;&#32026;&#28961;&#24847;&#21619; on one end and &#27494;&#22763;&#36947;&#19968;&#31563; on the other. It's meaning (which is difficult to literally translate) is &#8220;Rank has no meaning.&#8221; and &#8220;Bushido is the only path.&#8221;

I have been fortunate in my life. I have trained with many Masters, we spent many hours on the dojo.. Many of them stayed at my home whenthey were in the area. We engaged in hundreds of hours of talk about anything and everything. But not once in my memory, did we ever discuss rank. It did not seem to matter to them. Not one little bit.

Just saying.

 

[Wo Fat]

Maybe we should start looking at high dan rank in the same way the military looks at Generals. For instance, the law puts a limit on the number of 4-star generals. And each branch puts a cap on the number of Generals period. And these are active Generals. When they are no longer active, then they are "Retired General [Such-and-Such]".

And even though the military equivalent of high dan rank is political in some ways, there are standards in place so that age and service years alone doesn't qualify them for high rank.