High Ranking

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just to clear up a few things here, 10th Dan in no way, shape, or form equals Sokeship. At all.

Absolutely it doesn't, nor did I mean to imply that it actually is the same. I using the term in more of a 'head of system' way (only the head of the system is tenth dan) rather than as a tenth dan being a literal soke. But no, soke and dan are unrelated.

To answer Himura's question, most typically there is no new material beyond about 4th or 5th Dan in most systems, so there wouldn't be a case of "knowing the material through to 9th Dan" in the first place.

Pretty much. Though in some systems there is; taekwondo has new pumse for each dan grade. But from what I understand, most systems pretty much are done with new material by fourth.

Daniel

 

[Chris Parker]

Good to know, hopefully the explaination will correct anyone else who does have that misunderstanding then!

 

[Kacey]

Pretty much. Though in some systems there is; taekwondo has new pumse for each dan grade. But from what I understand, most systems pretty much are done with new material by fourth.

Daniel

Ch'ang H'on TKD (ITF) has new tuls at 5th and 6th - 2 at 5th, and 1 at 6th - to complete the set of 24, which represents a day, and thus stands for a life.

 

[Aiki Lee]

To answer Himura's question, most typically there is no new material beyond about 4th or 5th Dan in most systems, so there wouldn't be a case of "knowing the material through to 9th Dan" in the first place.

Ah. In aiki ninjutsu there is new material after 5th dan. At each dan level we focus on a different school. At 5th dan we practice and internalize some kata and principles from Kukishin, at 6th it'sTagaki Yoshin, and at 7th it's Shinden fudo ryu. 8th-9th is a catch belt where you collect the remaining kata from the schools previously studied and you specialize in a particular method.

I guess I assumed that other schools continued to work on specific things after 5th, but now that I think about it I remember the higher dans in Isshin ryu karate not having any specific new kata and they kind of started creating kata or studying other things.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Ah. In aiki ninjutsu there is new material after 5th dan. At each dan level we focus on a different school. At 5th dan we practice and internalize some kata and principles from Kukishin, at 6th it'sTagaki Yoshin, and at 7th it's Shinden fudo ryu. 8th-9th is a catch belt where you collect the remaining kata from the schools previously studied and you specialize in a particular method.

I guess I assumed that other schools continued to work on specific things after 5th, but now that I think about it I remember the higher dans in Isshin ryu karate not having any specific new kata and they kind of started creating kata or studying other things.

Aiki Ninjutsu?

 

[Aiki Lee]

Yes. Aiki ninjutsu. Our art is made up of the takamatsu arts and two aikijujutsu schools and swordsmanship from eishin ryu.

 

[Kwan Jang]

I'm currently in training for my seventh dan test which will be next summer. Far from a token test, I'm going to need that time to really get down all the new material I'm expected to master. I'm also expected to be be at a new level of physical conditioning. I'm training for a world Jiu-Jitsu title fight prior to that and the 7th dan test is actually the bigger prep since it is far more diverse.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Aiki Ninjutsu?

Usually, arts that have aiki attached to them outside of aikido or DRAJ are using 'aiki' principles in the execution of their techniques. I have seen ads at some time or another for JMA with 'aiki' added as a prefix, arts that are not normally associated with aiki-anything. From what I have seen, the dojocho or organizational head had enough of an aikido background to be able to integrate aiki prinicples into a given art.

Daniel

 

[yorkshirelad]

Usually, arts that have aiki attached to them outside of aikido or DRAJ are using 'aiki' principles in the execution of their techniques. I have seen ads at some time or another for JMA with 'aiki' added as a prefix, arts that are not normally associated with aiki-anything. From what I have seen, the dojocho or organizational head had enough of an aikido background to be able to integrate aiki prinicples into a given art.

Daniel

It just seems a little odd to me. The Bujinkan encompasses arts that already have "aiki" principles attached to them. I'm no expert on the matter, but I thought Tagaki Yoshin Ryu had aiki principles. Why add something that's already there?

 

[MJS]

If a person trains in an organization where the the highest ranking member dies before he can promote the next people, should those people next in promote themselves?

For example, let's say a teacher is a 7th dan, but he knows the material through 9th. If his teacher who is say 10th dan dies and there is no one left in the organization than this 7th dan, should he automatically assume the top position if he has all the material or should the organization now have 7th dan as the highest ranked level and just teach the material that comes after without awarding any rank to it?

Well, we could look at it a few different ways.

1) The highest ranking student could go to one of those groups, where they have a bunch of high ranking people sitting on a panel, none of which are probably in the same art as the testee, and get a promotion that way. Of course, I've always wondered how someone could go to someone else, who doesnt even do the art, and get a promotion, but whatever....

2) They could promote themselves. Of course, the person is going to have to be prepared to answer questions asked of them, regarding the promotion. Imagine the look on the new students face, when the conversation goes something like this....

Student: So you're a 10th dan? Who was the teacher that promoted you?

Teacher: Well, he passed on when I was a 7th, and I figured I'd promote myself to 10th, as I was his highest ranking student.

3) The student could find another group that teaches the same art, and align with them, providing they have someone higher than what the students rank is.

4) They could just stay 7th forever.

 

[yorkshirelad]

I would much rather see someone promote themselves than get promoted by a panel who'd never seen their art before. Like Ed Parker said when asked how he decided to don his 10th degree, he responded, "I compared myself to the standard of my peers and promoted myself accordingly." Or something along those lines.

 

[MJS]

I would much rather see someone promote themselves than get promoted by a panel who'd never seen their art before.

Yes, looking at it like that, I agree with you 100%.

 

[Aiki Lee]

It just seems a little odd to me. The Bujinkan encompasses arts that already have "aiki" principles attached to them. I'm no expert on the matter, but I thought Tagaki Yoshin Ryu had aiki principles. Why add something that's already there?

We add aiki to everything. Koto ryu, gyokko ryu, kukishin ryu. Everything. We take kata and techniques from other school and after looking at how that school does it we try to make it flow and become aiki. It is our goal to use aiki movement to put us in an advantageous tactical position from which we can launch our attack.

Honestly, If someone trains long enough all martial artists eventually move to some form of aiki training. We just figure people should work on it sooner rather than later because it is the best way we found to transform from a defensive position to an offensive one.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It just seems a little odd to me. The Bujinkan encompasses arts that already have "aiki" principles attached to them. I'm no expert on the matter, but I thought Tagaki Yoshin Ryu had aiki principles. Why add something that's already there?

I suppose because not all ninjutsu schools are Bujinkan. That would be my guess at least.

Daniel

 

[Aiki Lee]

Well Tagaki Yoshin ryu isn't even a ninja ryu, it's a samurai school. I don't have much experience in that particular section of our cirriculum, so there may very well be some aiki training in it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I would much rather see someone promote themselves than get promoted by a panel who'd never seen their art before. Like Ed Parker said when asked how he decided to don his 10th degree, he responded, "I compared myself to the standard of my peers and promoted myself accordingly." Or something along those lines.

The only caveat is that many people have an unrealistic view of their abilities when they make their comparisons. Or will drag out Ed Parker's statement as justification for self promotion without necesarilly meeting the same standard that Parker did. Some will undersell themselves. Most will oversell themselves.

As for the panel, so long as the panel is a panel of practitioners of the same art and are evaluating the candidate in person, I find that less problematic than self promotion. If, for example, a panel of Kukkiwon high dans evaluated Jhoon Rhee in person and issued him an eighth dan based on what they saw, I'd be perfectly fine with that. However, if Steven Seagal was the next in line, got up and did his aikido and whatever else it is that he does (lots of strikes, but it isn't taekwondo), and was issued an eighth dan by that same panel, I would consider that out of place, regardless of how good a job Seagal did in his presentation.

Daniel

 

[yorkshirelad]

Well Tagaki Yoshin ryu isn't even a ninja ryu, it's a samurai school. I don't have much experience in that particular section of our cirriculum, so there may very well be some aiki training in it.

No it's not, but you stated that each dan grade focused on a different Takamatsuden art, some of which are not Ninjutsu schools. So, by refering to your art as Ninjutsu, I thought you were refering to Ninjutsu in the way that Hatsumi Sensei refered to his art in the eighties, Bujinkan Ninjutsu or Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu, but encompassing all Tkamatsuden.
I don't understand how you create an offensive posture by practicing aiki principals. The nature of aiki is to absorb an attack and deflect it, or control the attacker. This seems rather defensive to me. If you wanted to create an offensive posture, wouldn't it be more apt to practice an art such as Muay Thai, which doesn't rely on an attacker initiating action, but instead is simple, direct and very offensive in nature?

 

[MJS]

The only caveat is that many people have an unrealistic view of their abilities when they make their comparisons. Or will drag out Ed Parker's statement as justification for self promotion without necesarilly meeting the same standard that Parker did. Some will undersell themselves. Most will oversell themselves.

As for the panel, so long as the panel is a panel of practitioners of the same art and are evaluating the candidate in person, I find that less problematic than self promotion. If, for example, a panel of Kukkiwon high dans evaluated Jhoon Rhee in person and issued him an eighth dan based on what they saw, I'd be perfectly fine with that. However, if Steven Seagal was the next in line, got up and did his aikido and whatever else it is that he does (lots of strikes, but it isn't taekwondo), and was issued an eighth dan by that same panel, I would consider that out of place, regardless of how good a job Seagal did in his presentation.

Daniel

Yes, if the panel is a panel of people who're in the same art, style, etc., then yes, I have no issues with that. But....if a Kenpo person is standing in front of a panel of people who're TKD, Shotokan, BJJ and Bujinkan, then no, I can't see how anyone could accept a promotion from a panel like that.

Some people out there will think that just because the panel consists of high ranking BBs, that they've been doing thier respective art for 20+ yrs. that that automatically means that those people are capable of judging and promoting them. I disagree. I have 20+ yrs in Kenpo, but I'd never sit on a TKD testing board. Why? Because I know nothing of TKD. For myself, I would not feel right about saying, "Yes, this TKD student deserves a belt." when I know nothing about the art.

 

[yorkshirelad]

The only caveat is that many people have an unrealistic view of their abilities when they make their comparisons. Or will drag out Ed Parker's statement as justification for self promotion without necesarilly meeting the same standard that Parker did. Some will undersell themselves. Most will oversell themselves.

As for the panel, so long as the panel is a panel of practitioners of the same art and are evaluating the candidate in person, I find that less problematic than self promotion. If, for example, a panel of Kukkiwon high dans evaluated Jhoon Rhee in person and issued him an eighth dan based on what they saw, I'd be perfectly fine with that. However, if Steven Seagal was the next in line, got up and did his aikido and whatever else it is that he does (lots of strikes, but it isn't taekwondo), and was issued an eighth dan by that same panel, I would consider that out of place, regardless of how good a job Seagal did in his presentation.

Daniel

I agree 100%. It's difficult for the beginner now to disipher quality from nonsense given the vast number of Grandmaster, Supreme Grandmasters and Great Grandmasters out there.
I have been practising American Kenpo for years and have gotten disillusioned with all the self appointed 10th Degrees out there. There are some at the very top, who are indeed worthy, but many who are second and third generation, who think a photo of themselves with Mr. Parker will suffice. This was in fact Mr. Parker's fault for not naming a successor. As a result of this, we mere students have to be wary who we spend our time training with
In these times, I think any prospective student should make their decision of who to train with by witnessing first hand the instructor's skills and interaction with the student's. If you like what you see, then go for it. Other considerations include, lineage and years of dedicated training. Stripes on a belt are now becoming obselete, due to the upsurge of MMA.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Somehow I missed this when you posted it, Yorkshirelad. Sorry I'm only getting to it now.

No it's not, but you stated that each dan grade focused on a different Takamatsuden art, some of which are not Ninjutsu schools. So, by refering to your art as Ninjutsu, I thought you were refering to Ninjutsu in the way that Hatsumi Sensei refered to his art in the eighties, Bujinkan Ninjutsu or Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu, but encompassing all Tkamatsuden.?

More or less, yes that is the case. My teacher started his ninjutsu training in the 80s. So we use the term "ninjutsu" to denote that side of our martial lineage which is made up mostly of koto ryu, kukishin ryu, gyokko ryu, tagaki yoshin ryu, togakure ryu, shinden fudo ryu from the Takamatsuden.

I don't understand how you create an offensive posture by practicing aiki principals. The nature of aiki is to absorb an attack and deflect it, or control the attacker. This seems rather defensive to me. If you wanted to create an offensive posture, wouldn't it be more apt to practice an art such as Muay Thai, which doesn't rely on an attacker initiating action, but instead is simple, direct and very offensive in nature?

The aiki side of our training is to transform the situation from a defensive one to an offensive one. Many of our tactics are about how to push the person to make them attack such as baiting with kamae or messing with their sense of distance, or harassing them with painful and irritating strikes to the limbs until they get frustrated and attack. The offensive postures are taken mostly from ninjutsu such as bobi no kamae and jumonji no kamae. I find that its not so much the posture itself that determines what is offensive or defensive but the attitude behind it.

again, sorry for the late reply to this one!