What makes a Legend, Pioneer, Grandmaster?

[jasonbrinn]

With the passing of Joe Lewis and other "Martial Arts Greats" the last few years words such as Legend, Pioneer and Grandmaster have become more commonplace in the discussions I have had. Are we seeing the last of an era that isn't being replaced? What does it take to be called a Legend, Pioneer, Grandmaster? Are we still seeing these roles lived out today with younger generations or have times shifted away from such ideas?


Thank you,


Jason Brinn

 

[Gentle Fist]

Royce Gracie is still alive right? His legend didn't start until 1993... What about Kayla Harrison? The world just met her, even though many of us saw her coming a few years ago and knew a new era in Judo was about to start...

Legends still walk amongst us...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Quite a few great people back in the day and quite a few great people now! Maybe more now because simply more people are training! This is the way of the world old is replaced by new, etc, etc, etc. and it carries on forever! Things should improve and get better and the over time as well and the Martial Sciences are no different in this than anything else! That does of course take nothing away from the people who laid the foundation for our growth. We all owe them a debt of gratitude!

 

[MJS]

With the passing of Joe Lewis and other "Martial Arts Greats" the last few years words such as Legend, Pioneer and Grandmaster have become more commonplace in the discussions I have had. Are we seeing the last of an era that isn't being replaced? What does it take to be called a Legend, Pioneer, Grandmaster? Are we still seeing these roles lived out today with younger generations or have times shifted away from such ideas?


Thank you,


Jason Brinn

Nice thread topic! Hmm...I would say that before we were to call ourselves any of what you mention, we should compare ourselves, ie: our skill, our understanding, what we've done for the art, etc, to what the past and present legends, pioneers, and GMs are doing and ask ourselves if we're on the same level. Now of course, some people will have a huge ego, and assume that they have met the standards, but all ego aside, if we haven't scratched the surface of what they've done, then no, they obviously don't have what it takes. If they have, then sure, call yourself a legend.

 

[Kinghercules]

Joe Hayes.....a living legend.

Albert Cheeks.....a living legend.

For me, I aspire to achieve their level of training, skills and and sportsmanship.

A legend is someone that has left an lasting impression not just on me but the Art itself such as Hirokazu Kanazawa.

Pioneer: Mike Warren.
In almost every tournament when you see someone sparring you see them bouncing up and down "like a jumping bean" as BB Magazine described Mike Warren when he first started this phenomenon back in the 70's.

Grandmaster.....this is a term and title that has been easily given to ppl whom my not deserved it. Its seems everybody is a grandmaster now but what have they done to deserve that rank?

"Oh Ive been training for 40yrs."

So! Not everyone gets to become a 4 star general! Let alone general. Your years of training in the Art shouldnt automatically equal GM status.

 

[K-man]

Pioneers are pioneers by definition. Legends are legends because for one reason or another, like cream they have risen to the top and, like Kinghercules said, left a lasting impression.

Grandmasters, though, seem to be a dime a dozen. I take anyone who calls himself GM with a huge grain of salt. :asian:

 

[pgsmith]

I was told by an older Japanese instructor a number of years ago, that it is our great-grandchildren's decision. I was actually asking what he thought about the proliferation of 'grandmasters' and 'sokes' that seemed to be sprouting like weeds and touting thier own invented arts, but the same answer applies. He told me that a truly good art and school would last many generations. If the art and school was still going strong when his great-grandchildren were ready to begin martial arts, then it would be their decision as to whether it was worth going to, not his right now. So, it's easy to look back and say this fellow or that was terrific, legendary, pioneering, whatever. It's not so easy to look to the future and see who will be proclaimed as such then. I prefer to simply do my thing and let the future worry about itself.

 

[lklawson]

There are lots of "Pioneers" and more are cropping up all the time. Anytime someone blazes a new path of study or inquiry, they're a "Pioneer." There are "Pioneers" in Western Martial Arts, RBSD, HEMA, MMA, Grappling, Improvised Weapons, and any number of other topics related to martial arts. The question is, out of all of these many, many "Pioneers," how many are blazing a path that anyone else cares to follow? How many of these "Pioneers" are pioneering niche paths?

Just because they're not famous or broadly influential in the wider martial arts world doesn't make them not a "Pioneer." Nor does the fact that they're a "Pioneer" make their work particularly useful to anyone or even interesting.

Martial arts pioneering is a lot like wildcatting firearms cartridges. A lot of them wither on the vine or never have more than a small-but-dedicated following. For every ".454 Casull" and ".22 TCM" that makes it to broad acceptance there are 1,000 ".223 Timbs" and ".22 Reed Express" designs that have only a handful of adherents. Same with martial arts "Pioneers."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Cyriacus]

I cant help but think that Grandmaster should be kept seperate from terms like Pioneer or Legend. A Pioneer is someone who leads something in a better direction (Im stroking a broad brush, dont worry), a Legend is someone notorious for their work, but a Grandmaster is a rank or title.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What makes a Legend, Pioneer, Grandmaster?... In Chinese Martial Arts

Lets look at these as seperate
What makes a Legend, Pioneer? Innovation and or skill andthere are likely more out there than we will ever know due to the nature of thebeast that is CMA. A lot of the real good and talented people do not advertiseor look for students and they rarely tell you how good they are…if they don’tknow you that is.

What makes a Grandmaster? This is a very different questionin CMA and it depends on where you are geographically. If you are outside ofChina it tends to be the quest for money and or fame or sometimes simply amisunderstanding by ones students that has gone uncorrected. There is nostandard for Grandmaster and inside China the term does not exist....or atleast not in a way you want to be called one

In China what makes a Grandmaster is lack or skill, falseclaims and sarcasm. It is not a compliment on mainland, it is an insult. Guygoes around saying how great he is claiming lineages he may or may not haveever trained in, telling you how many different styles he is a master of….. Otherlegitimate martial artist could refer to him as a Grandmaster this can also bea challenge.