What kind of knife is best for knife fighting?
- Thread starter Joab
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Yep. I like that one. The other style of knife I like is something that was designed as a specialty item, made by a company called Jensen Elite Blades (no longer in business). They had an item called the JUST (Jensen Utility Survival Tool), a copy of which is found at the bottom of this page (http://www.jbknives.biz/GALLERY03.html).
These blades are designed to only really be used in a reverse grip, and are great for trapping that way. My Chief Instructor was involved in designing taining programs (with the military in mind) for this tool, so we went through it in a bit of depth. Lots of fun, unfortunately no longer available unless you get someone to custom make one for you.
These blades are designed to only really be used in a reverse grip, and are great for trapping that way. My Chief Instructor was involved in designing taining programs (with the military in mind) for this tool, so we went through it in a bit of depth. Lots of fun, unfortunately no longer available unless you get someone to custom make one for you.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
Nerd......:spock:
Sorry to be a dick here but could you define knife fighting?
I ask because knife combat breaks down into two forms; knife assaults, read Sentry removal tactics for those familiar with old school (fairbourne/applegate) combatives frame opf thought and knife dueling (hollywood style knife fights). Thats a huge factor, my personal general useage combat knife is gonna similar to a K-bar in design & my general tactic for either case will be thrust in and slash out.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Not every knife-on-knife fight is going to be a "duel," particularly in modern context, but I get where you're coming from.
I should also point out (again) that various cultures at various times have different takes on what a knife "duel" is. An 18th Century Spanish baratero had a very different idea of what a knife duel was than a 17th Century Italian noble choosing "poniards" to say nothing of what a 1950's Philippino escrimador might think. Any of them could turn fatal (or even be assumed so at first blush), but the rules of engagement and social context was far different for each.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Well for simplisity's sake I consider a Duel any squaring off of opponents with a brandished weapon before assault commences. I consider ambushing someone with a knife (think prision shanking) good tactics. I can see a soldier pulling a knife and facing off against an enemy soldier still dueling, wars are just the duellings of nations...
lklawson
Grandmaster
I think your definition of "duel" is a bit broad but, like I said, I understand where you're coming from and what you're geting at.
It's all good, man.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
wushuguy
Purple Belt
i would think that the best knife would be one that affords one reach and enough weight for various kinds of uses such as parry or slash or stab through thick material. it should also be made out of the best possible steel, best meaning it will be be tough enough not to take a set easily, hard enough that it can possibly cut through or damage the opponent's knife, crowbar, etc. without getting too damaged in the process. and it should feel good and natural in the hands of the wielder. ... so in my opinion the best knife must be customized to the wielder. Also if adamantium was ever available as knife material, I'd go for a knife made with that.
TKDHomeSchooler
Green Belt
I carry a SOG II Flash Tanto on my weak side front pocket and a Gerber Paraframe in my strong side back pocket. The Gerber is what I use daily for boxes and such, but can use it if neccessary, but if I have to go blade for blade I will want my SOG. From time to time I carry a Kabar TDK weak side in my belt.
All of that is if I can't make it to my S&W at 4 O'Clock.
All of that is if I can't make it to my S&W at 4 O'Clock.
lklawson
Grandmaster
So a sword then? ;-)
What if your opponent isn't likely to be wearing thick material? Maybe you live in Honduras or Haiti where the standard garb is T-Shirts and shorts.
I'm sorry, this isn't possible.
Highly subjective. I have a knife made with a ram's horn grip. Feels AWFUL in either hand in standard or reverse grip but darn near perfect in a right handed "Mediterranean grip."
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
David43515
Master Black Belt
Blade shape is gonna follow your preffered meathod of fighting. But I think a double edged blade for helf the length, with a wide blade for wounds with more surface area to bleed out, and a handle long enough to be used for striking. If I was going to rely solely on forward grip I`d like a 9-10 inch blade for leverage withthe slash. For either forward or reverse grip I doubt I`d want more than 6.5-7 inches. Either way I want it haip popping sharp.
BLACK LION
Black Belt
In advance, forgive me for rambling or mix-matching thoughts.
I wont continue to drill the point that there is no such thing as a best knife for "knife fighting" or why.
Q: What is the focus when using a sharp object?
A: To perforate flesh and ventilate the vascular system in any wahy possible....Of course targeting vital organs(lungs-heart) for laceration/ deflation is a good thought but they are protected by the rib cage and are harder to access... Sensory and reproductive organs are better targets and the anus is one of the worst to be stabbed in. Visceration is a good idea as well. Ligaments and large muscle groups are good but last on my list and always practiced as a step to get to eventuality.
Ligaments, connective tissue and muscle can buy time but do not offer the eventuality that a pointy object through the carotid artery.
If you know and understand why you are using that device and how to get the job done that way... the what, seems to diminish as does the sense of the fear from ignorance of the unknown. A bic pen all of a sudden becomes a tool that can put even large game down.
All you are looking to do is amplify your existing body weapon by affixing a sharp attachment to crash through thier structure with.... the tool itself will not do the job and just cuz you pick it up and want to stab or slice something doesnt either. IMHO, dispatching animals with sharp instrument is very dirty work if not the dirtiest job within bad breath distance... you have to work hard. The whole slash vs stab debate is useless as well when you look at the large compilation of stabbing data. The most success one will ever have when using a perforation device is to target vital areas...ALWAYS. I wouldnt want a 300# man on top of exsanguinating from superficial wounds inflicted by me while he continues to pommel me to bits with what life he has left.
My suggestion to anyone that wishes to go this route and believe me, I recommend it to anyone I feel capable... Know what the hell you are doing first becuase there is no magic pill and plenty of people get ran through with their own shanks...There is no best choice since it is not a contest and a showdown... the best choice is the one they dont know you have.
There is no best choice becuase 1 is never enough... If you really want to go that route 1 becomes 3 or 4. Seems strange, good... but I guarantee I am set up to ambush anyone from any position of compromise.
1 knife clipped to the pen pocket of my cargo pants does no good if tackled from behind by 2 parolees from san quentin.
You are the best weapon, what you affix to yourself means nothing if you have not honed yourself first...once you do that, it does not matter what you affix or attach to yourself, you are dangerous regardless.
It a mindset and a focus that makes the action decisive and that could mean finding a wood screw or construction nail or a popsickle stick an alley deck after being bumrushed by a vagrant.
If you know WHAT... those all become useful.
I wont continue to drill the point that there is no such thing as a best knife for "knife fighting" or why.
Q: What is the focus when using a sharp object?
A: To perforate flesh and ventilate the vascular system in any wahy possible....Of course targeting vital organs(lungs-heart) for laceration/ deflation is a good thought but they are protected by the rib cage and are harder to access... Sensory and reproductive organs are better targets and the anus is one of the worst to be stabbed in. Visceration is a good idea as well. Ligaments and large muscle groups are good but last on my list and always practiced as a step to get to eventuality.
Ligaments, connective tissue and muscle can buy time but do not offer the eventuality that a pointy object through the carotid artery.
If you know and understand why you are using that device and how to get the job done that way... the what, seems to diminish as does the sense of the fear from ignorance of the unknown. A bic pen all of a sudden becomes a tool that can put even large game down.
All you are looking to do is amplify your existing body weapon by affixing a sharp attachment to crash through thier structure with.... the tool itself will not do the job and just cuz you pick it up and want to stab or slice something doesnt either. IMHO, dispatching animals with sharp instrument is very dirty work if not the dirtiest job within bad breath distance... you have to work hard. The whole slash vs stab debate is useless as well when you look at the large compilation of stabbing data. The most success one will ever have when using a perforation device is to target vital areas...ALWAYS. I wouldnt want a 300# man on top of exsanguinating from superficial wounds inflicted by me while he continues to pommel me to bits with what life he has left.
My suggestion to anyone that wishes to go this route and believe me, I recommend it to anyone I feel capable... Know what the hell you are doing first becuase there is no magic pill and plenty of people get ran through with their own shanks...There is no best choice since it is not a contest and a showdown... the best choice is the one they dont know you have.
There is no best choice becuase 1 is never enough... If you really want to go that route 1 becomes 3 or 4. Seems strange, good... but I guarantee I am set up to ambush anyone from any position of compromise.
1 knife clipped to the pen pocket of my cargo pants does no good if tackled from behind by 2 parolees from san quentin.
You are the best weapon, what you affix to yourself means nothing if you have not honed yourself first...once you do that, it does not matter what you affix or attach to yourself, you are dangerous regardless.
It a mindset and a focus that makes the action decisive and that could mean finding a wood screw or construction nail or a popsickle stick an alley deck after being bumrushed by a vagrant.
If you know WHAT... those all become useful.
lklawson
Grandmaster
You are making some assumptions about several things here. One thing you are assuming is that incapacitation and/or instant severely diminished capacity at movement and attack is less desirable than eventual death due to loss of consciousness through blood loss or organ failure. This may not be the case. It takes TIME to bleed out. A severed hamstring or cut inner wrist has immediate effect. Unconsciousness due to blood loss can take up to several minutes.
Do you care if he's dead so long as he's incapable of attacking any further?
Dude, if you're already down to defending yourself with a knife you're way past worrying about blood-born pathogens. That's a distant, statistically remote, and unconfirmed potential threat, particularly when you're in the middle of dealing with the immediate threat that the fella is trying to kill you RIGHT NOW.
For that matter, you just plain need to accept that you're going to be exposed to your opponent's blood/bodily-fluids if you use a knife. There's just no way around it. If you plan to use a knife, accept ahead of time the danger of potential blood-born pathogen exposure.
This seems to be a matter of faith for many. However, I've never seen any hard data that actually supports this assertion. I'd love to know what your source is.
The problem is, that's not always an accurate statement. Sure, in many cases, it's not. However, there are also many historic (and even contemporary) contexts where is IS a contest; a Duel.
I mentioned this early on and it's still an accurate statement. There's all kinds of knife-fighting in a vast array of differing, sometimes mutually exclusive, contexts. Knives deployed in modern Johannesburg is simply not the same thing as knives deployed in 18th Century Spain which is a far, far cry from knives deployed in 16th Century Germany. The goals in all three are different as are the clothing, knives, and social strictures of the times.
Context is everything.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
BLACK LION
Black Belt
"Dude", read my post again.
BLACK LION
Black Belt
To make a long story short, whith a blade I do the same sheet I would without... to met the only different is eventuality may come quicker.
BLACK LION
Black Belt
Correction:
Originally Posted by lklawson
You are making some assumptions about several things here. One thing you are assuming is that incapacitation and/or instant severely diminished capacity at movement and attack is less desirable than eventual death due to loss of consciousness through blood loss or organ failure. This may not be the case. It takes TIME to bleed out. A severed hamstring or cut inner wrist has immediate effect. Unconsciousness due to blood loss can take up to several minutes. I dont see where I assumed any of this. What makes you think this. Lets activate rant mode again shall we.
A severed hamstring is great as is a severed achilles heel but they can still kill you without any of those things...If I stab a man in the eye he lost 50% of his sense of sight in one motion not only that but he will most often lose that eye forever and his body will react that way without his brain having any say in it...the only way he wouldnt jerk around like a broke neck chiken is if he was duct taped and even still he would writhe...Here I have time and opportunity because he is more busy nursing that eyeball than he would be if I slashed his wrists or leg etc... If I then proceed to stab him in his esophagus he will drown in scuz pretty quick and depending on how I do it I may be rewarded with extra bonuses like an electrical knock out, etc etc... I AM SAYING, that by accessing a standard target or area of weakness that yeilds predictable spinal results when unarmed then you simply amplify that by crashing those same areas with a blade behind your body. I utilize the same target base no matter if I have a tool or not... If I had a gun, I would not shoot someone in the wrist or the leg unless I missed thier torso.
A hamstring would not necessarily be the kind of target I would be worried about access in a time is life situation and the wrist isnt either... WTF would I want to target a wrist and expend more time in a hostile zone than I would if I got in there like a pro football player and start taking his life away ASAP.... Besides, the ligaments in the back of the knee and front of the elbow would be a more viable slash target for me since they are closer to the surface on big meaty people and a man without a hand can still elbow you to pulp. Still those targets only practically offer themselves when you have been compromised in a sitting kneeling or lying position.
Originally Posted by lklawson
You are making some assumptions about several things here. One thing you are assuming is that incapacitation and/or instant severely diminished capacity at movement and attack is less desirable than eventual death due to loss of consciousness through blood loss or organ failure. This may not be the case. It takes TIME to bleed out. A severed hamstring or cut inner wrist has immediate effect. Unconsciousness due to blood loss can take up to several minutes. I dont see where I assumed any of this. What makes you think this. Lets activate rant mode again shall we.
A severed hamstring is great as is a severed achilles heel but they can still kill you without any of those things...If I stab a man in the eye he lost 50% of his sense of sight in one motion not only that but he will most often lose that eye forever and his body will react that way without his brain having any say in it...the only way he wouldnt jerk around like a broke neck chiken is if he was duct taped and even still he would writhe...Here I have time and opportunity because he is more busy nursing that eyeball than he would be if I slashed his wrists or leg etc... If I then proceed to stab him in his esophagus he will drown in scuz pretty quick and depending on how I do it I may be rewarded with extra bonuses like an electrical knock out, etc etc... I AM SAYING, that by accessing a standard target or area of weakness that yeilds predictable spinal results when unarmed then you simply amplify that by crashing those same areas with a blade behind your body. I utilize the same target base no matter if I have a tool or not... If I had a gun, I would not shoot someone in the wrist or the leg unless I missed thier torso.
A hamstring would not necessarily be the kind of target I would be worried about access in a time is life situation and the wrist isnt either... WTF would I want to target a wrist and expend more time in a hostile zone than I would if I got in there like a pro football player and start taking his life away ASAP.... Besides, the ligaments in the back of the knee and front of the elbow would be a more viable slash target for me since they are closer to the surface on big meaty people and a man without a hand can still elbow you to pulp. Still those targets only practically offer themselves when you have been compromised in a sitting kneeling or lying position.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Three posts?
In a Self Defense situation (as opposed to either murder or dueling), you don't care whether the assailant dies or not, your goal is to STOP THE THREAT.
Anyway, you're still assuming a specific type of "knife fight" and several specific sets of circumstances which may not always be the case. Dudes pulling knives in Alaska in December is a different thing from dudes pulling knives in Haiti.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I would strongly suggest that you consider a strategy in which is focused on "stopping the threat and stopping when the threat stops."
In a Self Defense situation (as opposed to either murder or dueling), you don't care whether the assailant dies or not, your goal is to STOP THE THREAT.
Show me where I said that it had to be a prison shanking? In fact, a large part of my point is that not everything that qualifies as a "knife fight" is a study from Folsom or a "modern North American Self Defense encounter."
And you should understand that this is not the only context possible, as I've mentioned several times in this thread. There are many possible contexts and the OP deliberately left the question very open ended. Perhaps it would have been more helpful if you would have specified your set of assumptions at the beginning instead of assuming that your specific circumstances are the same and equally valid for everyone.
Have you read this thread?
Anyway, you're still assuming a specific type of "knife fight" and several specific sets of circumstances which may not always be the case. Dudes pulling knives in Alaska in December is a different thing from dudes pulling knives in Haiti.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Last edited:
Ok,
First, please alow me to apologize to everyone for reopening an old wound (post).
To the OP: there have been some good and MOSTLY accurate TECHNICAL points, so I will address that area first. For the untrained: if its comfortable in the hand swing/slash/poke/stab and hope fir the best with whatever you have on hand. That's it! That's what is "best"!
Fir the trained: TECHNICALLY a razor sharp edge of 1/2"-1" is all you NEED. 2 fast slashes to 2 major arteries will end your opponents life VERY VERY VERY quickly, because an adrenaline fueled heart beat wil pump the body "dry" in about a minute ir less (the more arterial strikes the faster the end). Also, the bigger/heavier the knife, the slower you can move it. Although it is almost imperceptible, it is fact. Serrations are a NO-NO....unless you are planing to saw on your opponent. A double edge allows for follow-up strikes with equal damage. You also want a handle that is still going to provide for a secure/positive forward AND reverse grips for 2 simple reasons: 1) your hand IS going to get wet from blood (definitely) and weather (possibly). A curved blade does truly provide increased cutting edge (on the convex side), but (although shorter cutting edge) also provides a serious hooking (not "street-walker" guys, lol) capability as well as less of a chance for your opponent to grab your blade to disarm you So....while I will always love/cherrish/rely on my Kbar...my vote for "A" perfect fighting knife would be a properly Karambit.
THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, albeit one formed from actual knife fights, but if anyone has any question about just how nadty these knives can be (in the hands of the trained at least), just google images on the wounds and check out Doug Marcaida videos on its usage.
But as a final suggestion (and this backs up a previous response): 1 is never enough!!!!! "1 is none, 2 is one, 3 is to, etc etc etc..."
Best luck, and may you never find yourself in this situation....ever. If you do and live (and "they" die) it will never leave you, for better or worse. Some of us (everyone, not just military/LEO) can live with it (the reason my wife worries I'm going to "snap and attack" someone/some day *but only the growing pool of asses 'out there'), but most...most will be desyroyed by the memory alone (even military/LEO)
First, please alow me to apologize to everyone for reopening an old wound (post).
To the OP: there have been some good and MOSTLY accurate TECHNICAL points, so I will address that area first. For the untrained: if its comfortable in the hand swing/slash/poke/stab and hope fir the best with whatever you have on hand. That's it! That's what is "best"!
Fir the trained: TECHNICALLY a razor sharp edge of 1/2"-1" is all you NEED. 2 fast slashes to 2 major arteries will end your opponents life VERY VERY VERY quickly, because an adrenaline fueled heart beat wil pump the body "dry" in about a minute ir less (the more arterial strikes the faster the end). Also, the bigger/heavier the knife, the slower you can move it. Although it is almost imperceptible, it is fact. Serrations are a NO-NO....unless you are planing to saw on your opponent. A double edge allows for follow-up strikes with equal damage. You also want a handle that is still going to provide for a secure/positive forward AND reverse grips for 2 simple reasons: 1) your hand IS going to get wet from blood (definitely) and weather (possibly). A curved blade does truly provide increased cutting edge (on the convex side), but (although shorter cutting edge) also provides a serious hooking (not "street-walker" guys, lol) capability as well as less of a chance for your opponent to grab your blade to disarm you So....while I will always love/cherrish/rely on my Kbar...my vote for "A" perfect fighting knife would be a properly Karambit.
THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, albeit one formed from actual knife fights, but if anyone has any question about just how nadty these knives can be (in the hands of the trained at least), just google images on the wounds and check out Doug Marcaida videos on its usage.
But as a final suggestion (and this backs up a previous response): 1 is never enough!!!!! "1 is none, 2 is one, 3 is to, etc etc etc..."
Best luck, and may you never find yourself in this situation....ever. If you do and live (and "they" die) it will never leave you, for better or worse. Some of us (everyone, not just military/LEO) can live with it (the reason my wife worries I'm going to "snap and attack" someone/some day *but only the growing pool of asses 'out there'), but most...most will be desyroyed by the memory alone (even military/LEO)
