What is your plan for re-opening?

[Dirty Dog]

And the fact that hospitals are being pressured to use COVID-19 as the cause of death, because they get more money that way.

This statement is complete horse ****.

 

[ShortBridge]

...

And the fact that hospitals are being pressured to use COVID-19 as the cause of death, because they get more money that way.

Care to cite your source for that?

 

[Headhunter]

I won’t deny that these are likely part of the big picture. So who are you willing to lose for the sake of reopening quickly? No reasonable person says we can’t ever reopen. But it needs to be done gradually and carefully. That’s what I’m not seeing happening.

Where did you hear this? I’ve not heard this claim.

Where I am what's happening is some places are now doing outdoor classes with no more than 5 people and everyone has to wear masks and keep socially distant so no contact. I personally will not be doing it but it's a gradual step to it. But kids classes is not a good idea at all. Adults mostly can have common sense and the ones that don't will at least be told and listen to the instructor but yeah martial arts is frankly the least important thing at the moment. I can't wait to get back but I'll happily take off as long as need be so I don't die or risk killing any of my family

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Care to cite your source for that?

So found the source. PolitiFact - Fact-check: Hospitals and COVID-19 payments

The tl;dr version: Hospitals do get paid more for COVID patients, which was done to undercut money lost by the hospitals where COVID rates are higher. They are not being pressured or told to diagnose people as COVID, are specifying if someone is suspected or confirmed (and not from this source but in general the increase in rates is only for confirmed, so without a test it's a moot point), and it is more likely being undercounted then that there is false-covid reports going out there for money.

Which btw I'm pretty sure (would have to find a source if anyone wanted) that either the doctor or the hospital would lose their license if they were found to be doing that-and it's a pretty easy thing to find out if there's a concern. So I don't think the 20% rate increase would be worth the risk that you're taking with each patient, even if healthcare workers were known to be primarily unethical.

 

[Flying Crane]

This statement is complete horse ****.

That was my gut assumption. If there is a source for the claim I wanted to see it and what the actual wording of the claim is. But yeah, I definitely needed some convincing.

 

[Flying Crane]

So found the source. PolitiFact - Fact-check: Hospitals and COVID-19 payments

The tl;dr version: Hospitals do get paid more for COVID patients, which was done to undercut money lost by the hospitals where COVID rates are higher. They are not being pressured or told to diagnose people as COVID, are specifying if someone is suspected or confirmed (and not from this source but in general the increase in rates is only for confirmed, so without a test it's a moot point), and it is more likely being undercounted then that there is false-covid reports going out there for money.

Which btw I'm pretty sure (would have to find a source if anyone wanted) that either the doctor or the hospital would lose their license if they were found to be doing that-and it's a pretty easy thing to find out if there's a concern. So I don't think the 20% rate increase would be worth the risk that you're taking with each patient, even if healthcare workers were known to be primarily unethical.

Thank you for posting that link. It is about what I suspected.

 

[skribs]

Where did you hear this? I’ve not heard this claim.

From several doctors and nurses that I know. From my own job in the medical field.

Physicians Say Hospitals Are Pressuring ER Docs to List COVID-19 on Death Certificates. Here’s Why | Jon Miltimore

Hospital Payments and the COVID-19 Death Count - says that there isn't pressure per se, but to assume that if the symptoms line up and they tested negative, it was a false negative

COVID-19 death certificate change stirs controversy - similar as the above. People without confirmation of COVID-19, but with similar symptoms are being listed as COVID-19 related deaths on their certificate

Something I learned over a decade ago - fact checkers are great for checking on things like hoaxes and scams. They're horrible for politics. The fact-checkers are quite often blinded by their partisanship, and think that the opinions they express are fact. This happens on both sides of any political issue.

 

[Flying Crane]

From several doctors and nurses that I know. From my own job in the medical field.

Physicians Say Hospitals Are Pressuring ER Docs to List COVID-19 on Death Certificates. Here’s Why | Jon Miltimore

Hospital Payments and the COVID-19 Death Count - says that there isn't pressure per se, but to assume that if the symptoms line up and they tested negative, it was a false negative

COVID-19 death certificate change stirs controversy - similar as the above. People without confirmation of COVID-19, but with similar symptoms are being listed as COVID-19 related deaths on their certificate

Something I learned over a decade ago - fact checkers are great for checking on things like hoaxes and scams. They're horrible for politics. The fact-checkers are quite often blinded by their partisanship, and think that the opinions they express are fact. This happens on both sides of any political issue.

Well, your first link is to a conservative think tank with ties to Koch Industries. You mention in your last paragraph how you feel people are blinded by their politics. Looks to me like you fit that description.

I don’t find anything objectionable or suggestive of some kind of systematic fraudulent push to over-identify Covid cases for the sake of profit in your second and third links. Part of it is just the inadequacy of the testing that has been done from the very beginning, and learning more about the virus in the meantime. So recognizing that prior deaths may have been Covid-related but were never identified due to lack of adequate testing ability seems very reasonable to me.

I would not presume that there are absolutely zero instances of what you describe. Unscrupulous individuals can be found in every industry and profession. But that is a far cry from any claims of this being systematic and widespread. It really looks like a conspiracy theory based on a very very small nugget of truth or on very few cases, and built into something much bigger than it actually is.

 

[Headhunter]

From several doctors and nurses that I know. From my own job in the medical field.

Physicians Say Hospitals Are Pressuring ER Docs to List COVID-19 on Death Certificates. Here’s Why | Jon Miltimore

Hospital Payments and the COVID-19 Death Count - says that there isn't pressure per se, but to assume that if the symptoms line up and they tested negative, it was a false negative

COVID-19 death certificate change stirs controversy - similar as the above. People without confirmation of COVID-19, but with similar symptoms are being listed as COVID-19 related deaths on their certificate

Something I learned over a decade ago - fact checkers are great for checking on things like hoaxes and scams. They're horrible for politics. The fact-checkers are quite often blinded by their partisanship, and think that the opinions they express are fact. This happens on both sides of any political issue.

I really don't know what any of this has to do with martial art clubs reopening. Whether this is true or not there is still a dangerous virus out there that puts people's lives at risk that's a fact and you can justify it any which way you want but starting up classes again especially for kids is wrong. Adults is easier to control so maybe for them if the right adjustments are in place but for kids it's simply impossible you can't keep kids seperate because it's in their nature to run around and be clingy and hugging off each other and they don't truly understand what's happening (it seems some adults don't either ) I get instructors are losing money and that sucks but to me people's lives come before their wallets. I'm not an instructor but if I was I wouldn't be able to live with myself if my choices ended up getting people killed or seriously sick

 

[Flying Crane]

I really don't know what any of this has to do with martial art clubs reopening. Whether this is true or not there is still a dangerous virus out there that puts people's lives at risk that's a fact and you can justify it any which way you want but starting up classes again especially for kids is wrong. Adults is easier to control so maybe for them if the right adjustments are in place but for kids it's simply impossible you can't keep kids seperate because it's in their nature to run around and be clingy and hugging off each other and they don't truly understand what's happening (it seems some adults don't either ) I get instructors are losing money and that sucks but to me people's lives come before their wallets. I'm not an instructor but if I was I wouldn't be able to live with myself if my choices ended up getting people killed or seriously sick

Yes, we are getting distracted by side issues.

Most regions, at least on a State level, are still showing growing infection rates. Some areas are flattening. But even in the flat areas, it just means that the number of new cases each day are essentially the same. But those are still new cases every day. It isn’t decreasing. It hasn’t gone away. It isn’t under control. It is just being contained by one imperfect definition of what containment means. But it is still a very real problem that has the potential to grow again very quickly.

Exactly what is one’s region is somewhat open to interpretation. I could claim that my region is my home, and we are Covid-free. But that’s a nonsense claim because obviously we need to go out of the home for some things. So is it the City or the County or a cluster of cities or counties in an area? Or is it the State, or a cluster of States? Because we are a highly mobile society so a virus can easily be transferred into a region where it has not yet shown a high level of infection. A low-infection region can become a new hotspot outbreak overnight. Literally.

That is why this is such a problem. People trying to open too quickly and without proper caution are opening the door to spread the virus further and bring on a second wave that could be worse than what we have already experienced. This really isn’t difficult to understand.

No need to push for a quick opening for anyone’s school.

 

[skribs]

Well, your first link is to a conservative think tank with ties to Koch Industries. You mention in your last paragraph how you feel people are blinded by their politics. Looks to me like you fit that description.

So if it matches your point of view it's not blinded, but if it disagrees with you it is?

I really don't know what any of this has to do with martial art clubs reopening.

Honestly...everything. Because if it wasn't for this virus, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

[Flying Crane]

So if it matches your point of view it's not blinded, but if it disagrees with you it is?

Did I point to any political sources for my information? If I did, please remind me where because I have forgotten. I actually said that I find Dr. Fauci to be trustworthy. He is part of the current administrations team working on this.

 

[geezer]

...I get instructors are losing money and that sucks...

^^^The leadership of the association I belong to has absolutely solved this problem!

First, the heck with this "virus". They've simply started back up. At the HQ gym they take the temperature of students entering the gym, inform them not to practice if they feel sick, and tell them they can chose to wear masks if they want to.

Since many of the drills are done in touching, in close contact at clinch-range, they also provide free use of hand sanitizer. They make it clear that it is entirely up to the student to take care of him/herself. Besides, I was told privately, this is "Covid" really just like the flu. Apparently it's "the fake, liberal media that has hyped this" -- supposedly for political reasons.

And, to solve the problem of the loss of income, they just doubled the annual Association dues (depending on gym size) from mere $75 to $150 per month. But, since I teach just a few students semi-privately at a park, my dues will only go up to $125 per month. When I asked how I was supposed to pay that, I was told to either increase my fees to a minimum of $50 per hour per private student (or about $400 per month) or to increase my group class size from 2 to at least 10 at $120 per month per student.

They forgot about the third option. I stop teaching for their "Association".

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

^^^The leadership of the association I belong to has absolutely solved this problem!

First, the heck with this "virus". They've simply started back up. At the HQ gym they take the temperature of students entering the gym, inform them not to practice if they feel sick, and tell them they can chose to wear masks if they want to.

Since many of the drills are done in touching, in close contact at clinch-range, they also provide free use of hand sanitizer. They make it clear that it is entirely up to the student to take care of him/herself. Besides, I was told privately, this is "Covid" really just like the flu. Apparently it's "the fake, liberal media that has hyped this" -- supposedly for political reasons.

And, to solve the problem of the loss of income, they just doubled the annual Association dues (depending on gym size) from mere $75 to $150 per month. But, since I teach just a few students semi-privately at a park, my dues will only go up to $125 per month. When I asked how I was supposed to pay that, I was told to either increase my fees to a minimum of $50 per hour per private student (or about $400 per month) or to increase my group class size from 2 to at least 10 at $120 per month per student.

They forgot about the third option. I stop teaching for their "Association".

I was reading through this, and thinking that you have that third option right up until that last sentence. Especially at the double association dues portion.

 

[Headhunter]

So if it matches your point of view it's not blinded, but if it disagrees with you it is?



Honestly...everything. Because if it wasn't for this virus, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

No.....I mean your little conspiracy theory about hospital saying all deaths are from the virus. At the end of the day again you can justify it however you wish to but teaching kids right now is a very bad idea....there's a reason schools are closed

 

[Flying Crane]

^^^The leadership of the association I belong to has absolutely solved this problem!

First, the heck with this "virus". They've simply started back up. At the HQ gym they take the temperature of students entering the gym, inform them not to practice if they feel sick, and tell them they can chose to wear masks if they want to.

Since many of the drills are done in touching, in close contact at clinch-range, they also provide free use of hand sanitizer. They make it clear that it is entirely up to the student to take care of him/herself. Besides, I was told privately, this is "Covid" really just like the flu. Apparently it's "the fake, liberal media that has hyped this" -- supposedly for political reasons.

And, to solve the problem of the loss of income, they just doubled the annual Association dues (depending on gym size) from mere $75 to $150 per month. But, since I teach just a few students semi-privately at a park, my dues will only go up to $125 per month. When I asked how I was supposed to pay that, I was told to either increase my fees to a minimum of $50 per hour per private student (or about $400 per month) or to increase my group class size from 2 to at least 10 at $120 per month per student.

They forgot about the third option. I stop teaching for their "Association".

I was gonna ask why you belong to an association run by such a ship of fools and nincompoops? My dog, but I would disassociate on the spot, if some idiot tried to sell me on that load of backwash. Honestly, they are part of the problem.

Did they convince you that the 86,000 deaths in the US and over 300,000 worldwide are fake, never happened? I guess we ought to open all the graves and pull everyone out again.

See if you can get a write-up on this in one of the big newspapers. They deserve some serious bad publicity for this.

 

[Headhunter]

Yes, we are getting distracted by side issues.

Most regions, at least on a State level, are still showing growing infection rates. Some areas are flattening. But even in the flat areas, it just means that the number of new cases each day are essentially the same. But those are still new cases every day. It isn’t decreasing. It hasn’t gone away. It isn’t under control. It is just being contained by one imperfect definition of what containment means. But it is still a very real problem that has the potential to grow again very quickly.

Exactly what is one’s region is somewhat open to interpretation. I could claim that my region is my home, and we are Covid-free. But that’s a nonsense claim because obviously we need to go out of the home for some things. So is it the City or the County or a cluster of cities or counties in an area? Or is it the State, or a cluster of States? Because we are a highly mobile society so a virus can easily be transferred into a region where it has not yet shown a high level of infection. A low-infection region can become a new hotspot outbreak overnight. Literally.

That is why this is such a problem. People trying to open too quickly and without proper caution are opening the door to spread the virus further and bring on a second wave that could be worse than what we have already experienced. This really isn’t difficult to understand.

No need to push for a quick opening for anyone’s school.

I do agree that some aspects of life do need to start getting back to normal. Simply because we could sit in for a year and it could still be active we just don't know so things do need to start getting back to normal. But you still have to be very careful. As I've said a group of 5 adults training on a field doing solo work and making sure there's a distance between each other then fair enough as long as everyones being sensible but kids is just a stupid idea frankly. Kids can't and won't remain at distance and a group of kids if it gets spread for them they'll go home and infect parents, brothers, sisters etc

 

[Flying Crane]

I do agree that some aspects of life do need to start getting back to normal. Simply because we could sit in for a year and it could still be active we just don't know so things do need to start getting back to normal. But you still have to be very careful. As I've said a group of 5 adults training on a field doing solo work and making sure there's a distance between each other then fair enough as long as everyones being sensible but kids is just a stupid idea frankly. Kids can't and won't remain at distance and a group of kids if it gets spread for them they'll go home and infect parents, brothers, sisters etc

Yeah, it’s that gradual and careful thing. Which is often what I am not seeing.

 

[skribs]

Did I point to any political sources for my information

Yes, you did. Political fact checkers are usually partisan sites built to be linked in political debates.

That way you can say you're looking at independent fact checkers instead of political sites. It's misleading, if not downright deceitful.

 

[skribs]

No.....I mean your little conspiracy theory about hospital saying all deaths are from the virus. At the end of the day again you can justify it however you wish to but teaching kids right now is a very bad idea....there's a reason schools are closed

In my state, 0 children deaths, only 1 death of anyone under 40.

This whole "its for the children" nonsense is just fearmongering.