What is the point of a tag in a full-contact fight?

[skribs]

Most of my fighting experience (as an adult) has been of the point variety. In that case, a "tag" (or a hit that's more about landing the hit than doing any damage) is what scores points. But what is the point of a tag in a real fight or a combat sport aimed at KOing your opponent?

What I'm trying to do is reconcile two seemingly contradictory points I see being made by MMA folk towards TMA folk and towards each other. On the one hand, TMA's tend to get made fun of for a couple of reasons (as relates to this thread). Some TMA folk believe that if they can land a single blow, the fight will be over.

However, the bigger thing is something I see in a lot of the "Kung Fu Grandmaster Challenges MMA Fighter" videos: the Kung Fu guy will be going berserk on the MMA fighter, but not really land any punches with power. Then the narrator will say "the MMA fighter realizes the punches aren't landing with power," and that's when you see the MMA fighter go from defensive to aggressive and win the fight.

I understand this. I'm not going to say it speaks for all TMAs, and I'm not going to say it paints TMAs in a bad light. But this seems a direct contradiction to what boxers and MMA fighters tell each other in tutorials: the jab should be your best punch.

You see, the jab isn't known as a knockout punch. While there have been some, KOs normally come from stronger punches like hooks, uppercuts, and crosses. The jab is usually just a tag.

So if a fighter can go up against someone who has weak punches and not bother protecting himself from them, why does he need to protect himself from a jab? Why couldn't he ignore the jab like he could against someone with weak punches all around?

 

[O'Malley]

I'm not a striker but my understanding is that the jab is much more than a tag and you have many types of them. It can be a setup for heavier blows, a way to measure distance, a way to keep your opponent at bay (can be an outright shove), a way to slowly chip at your opponent by piling up numerous low damage punches or a power punch with real KO power.

The case that you are describing is more about the kung fu guy trying to do damage and the MMA guy realizing that there's no real power behind it. MMA guy then loses respect for the kung fu guy's power and understands that he can just bulldoze his way through his opponent, because he knows that, even if he eats a shot, he won't suffer much damage. Had kung fu guy had any real power, MMA guy would not have rushed forward, since leaving such big openings would have exposed him to getting KO'd. At the end of the day, MMA guy just bulldozes and kung fu guy is hosed because he has no way to deal with it.

This happens less in MMA/boxing since 1) your opponent usually has enough power to pose a credible KO threat and 2) beyond beginner level, people know how to deal with an aggressive opponent.

I've been successfully bulldozed several times in kickboxing/savate sparring, it's pretty disconcerting when you don't know how to defend/take advantage of it. I'm sure forum members who fight will correct me and/or share more valuable insights.

 

[isshinryuronin]

You've brought up several good points, but there is more to a jab than the single element of power.

I've seen a lot of boxers eat jabs in order to land a power punch, so they do sometimes ignore them. Though getting hit by a jab will throw your timing off, acting as a "stop hit" as well as keep the opponent away, as the body normally tries to avoid getting hit, even with a jab. In these cases, the jab acts as a defensive technique. Getting hit by a lot of them can be frustrating and perhaps erode the fighter's overall confidence as it can establish the attacker's dominance, psychologically.

Offensively, the jab is useful to set the range and timing as well as influence the opponent's guard position, providing openings, aiding the power hits to land. And, a single good stiff jab, with the body behind it, is capable of ringing one's bell. In the long game of multiple rounds, continuous flicking jabs can open cuts and cause swelling in the eye region, impairing the fighter.

I think jabs play numerous effective roles in the overall plan of battle in boxing and, to a lesser extent, MMA. There are many more weapons (and strategies) available in MMA. Leg kicks, for example, can fulfill some of the functions of a jab.
In karate, backfists seem to often play part of the jab's role, i.e. Joe Lewis' backfist to set up the side thrust kick.

TMA is a different animal. While there is sport point karate (which for me is a lot of fun as a strategic challenge, while not getting beat up too bad)) and is a developer of physical skills as well, it is not the "real" TMA. Eye gouges, throat strikes, knee, wrist, neck breaks, testicle ripping (ugh!) etc., are not part of the sport game, so the whole approach is different.

 

[skribs]

I've seen a lot of boxers eat jabs in order to land a power punch, so they do sometimes ignore them. Though getting hit by a jab will throw your timing off, acting as a "stop hit" as well as keep the opponent away, as the body normally tries to avoid getting hit, even with a jab. In these cases, the jab acts as a defensive technique. Getting hit by a lot of them can be frustrating and perhaps erode the fighter's overall confidence as it can establish the attacker's dominance, psychologically.

Very good point. This echoes how I use punches in TKD sparring. Even though punches don't score, the effect of a "stop-hit" interrupts their combinations and helps set up.

TMA is a different animal. While there is sport point karate (which for me is a lot of fun as a strategic challenge, while not getting beat up too bad)) and is a developer of physical skills as well, it is not the "real" TMA. Eye gouges, throat strikes, knee, wrist, neck breaks, testicle ripping (ugh!) etc., are not part of the sport game, so the whole approach is different.

I cast a pretty wide umbrella here. I do agree that point sparring is fun. I could do without concussions, especially since my day job primarily relies on my brain to be effective.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In CMA tournament history, this has happened many times.

1. Full contact without gloves - too many people get serious hurt.
2. Full contact with gloves and body protection - astronaut fight astronaut.
3. Point system fight - develop bad habit. I touch you first, you lose.
4. Only take down can win - only wrestler can win.

IMO, there is no good solution for this.

 

[wab25]

I have a few points here.

First, every attack you make, creates an opening for your opponent. Different attacks have different openings, for different lengths of time. The jab has probably the smallest opening and for the shortest time. So, while to do open yourself up when you throw it, you open up the least when you use a jab.

The jab is also one of the fastest attacks. You can see the other guy start his haymaker, which has much more power, but you can start your jab after his haymaker ad still beat him to the punch and to the recovery.

Many of the TMA vs MMA fights I have watched... the TMA guys are using moves that have way bigger openings, and are not able to generate any power with them. So, the opposite of a jab... slow, very open and little power... where the jab is fast, fairly protected in comparison and does have power.

Another point to consider is that yes, a jab is a weak punch... when compared with the other punches that a boxer has. But, if you have never been hit by a boxers jab (thrown by a boxer... someone who trains and fights in a boxing gym regularly) you will find that that weak punch hits pretty hard. I would almost bet that if you took a tag playing TMA guy, whose sole experience is the tag game, and let him hit you full force... the boxers jab will hit you harder. The tag player has not yet learned how to hit with power, while the boxer has. This probably explains a lot of what we see in those videos... a guy with no real full contact fight experience against a guy with quite a bit. If the TMA guys would fight full contact, in the same way MMA guys do, I think we would see different things in the fights.

The last point here I think is most important. The boxer understands what a jab is, how to use it and when... in a full contact fight. The tag players may know how to use their techniques in tag, but its different in a full contact fight. Its all about setting things up. And understanding your tools. Also, the boxer has been hit before, and knows how to deal with it. Tag players like to stop after getting hit and congradulate each other... for a boxer, the tag hit, is the set up... there is more coming, a lot more.

 

[skribs]

In CMA tournament history, this has happened many times.

1. Full contact without gloves - too many people get serious hurt.
2. Full contact with gloves and body protection - astronaut fight astronaut.
3. Point system fight - develop bad habit. I touch you first, you lose.
4. Only take down can win - only wrestler can win.

IMO, there is no good solution for this.

At least not until we get to control simulants like in many sci-fi movies.

 

[skribs]

Another point to consider is that yes, a jab is a weak punch... when compared with the other punches that a boxer has. But, if you have never been hit by a boxers jab (thrown by a boxer... someone who trains and fights in a boxing gym regularly) you will find that that weak punch hits pretty hard. I would almost bet that if you took a tag playing TMA guy, whose sole experience is the tag game, and let him hit you full force... the boxers jab will hit you harder. The tag player has not yet learned how to hit with power, while the boxer has. This probably explains a lot of what we see in those videos... a guy with no real full contact fight experience against a guy with quite a bit. If the TMA guys would fight full contact, in the same way MMA guys do, I think we would see different things in the fights.

I will agree that the TMA guys you're talking about don't know how to use power. But a lot of them do. Even without full contact sparring, you can understand the principles that go into power generation and train them on things like boards, heavy bags, etc.

Boxers don't train full power in sparring sessions, either.

 

[drop bear]

I will agree that the TMA guys you're talking about don't know how to use power. But a lot of them do. Even without full contact sparring, you can understand the principles that go into power generation and train them on things like boards, heavy bags, etc.

Boxers don't train full power in sparring sessions, either.

You can and you can't. You kind of have to know what power does to a bag to determine its feedback properly.

And jabs hurt. That is why people throw them.

 

[wab25]

I will agree that the TMA guys you're talking about don't know how to use power. But a lot of them do.

I know. Thats why I tried to be careful in my wording. One problem with this whole thread is that the thread is too broad brush... and then you want me not to be too broad brush...

Even without full contact sparring, you can understand the principles that go into power generation and train them on things like boards, heavy bags, etc.

Hitting a stationary object with power is very different than hitting a moving target with power, and its very different again, when the moving target can hit you back with power and is looking to do so.

Boxers don't train full power in sparring sessions, either.

But they do fight at full power... which is an experience a lot of those TMA folks, in the videos, vs the MMA guys (trying not to be broad brush here), do not have. That experience alone is worth its weight in gold, regardless of style. There is only one way to get it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Key thing to remember is that there's a continuum of power between a tag and a 'knock out punch'. A jab is closer to a tag, but still different. So a jab can still hurt and has stopping power..and you're not putting all your energy into a jab. It also doesn't expose you in the ways that some other punches will to just 'land' a hit. On top of that, you're still under threat of a more powerful attack. So if a light attack comes, and I expect it to be followed up with 5 more light attacks, I can let the guy tire himself out. If a light attack comes, and I know there's a good chance it'll be followed up with a heavy attack, I have to be much more weary.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I will agree that the TMA guys you're talking about don't know how to use power. But a lot of them do. Even without full contact sparring, you can understand the principles that go into power generation and train them on things like boards, heavy bags, etc.

Boxers don't train full power in sparring sessions, either.

If you never fight at full power against a person, no matter how good your power generation is, a lot of people (I would guess most) will limit their own strikes power, possibly without even realizing it.

 

[Yokozuna514]

As most of you know Kyokushin does not typically allow punches to the face. However, there are some dojos that do train with this aspect in mind and I've been fortunate to have been able to put some gloves on. Immediately one of the differences I've discovered is that the game changes quite a bit when you are allowed to punch to the face. The jab becomes much more useful for setting up combinations as well as in many ways that are not typically apparent if you have not been have not been hit in the face by a jab before. One of the first things I noticed immediately was how much of your field of vision was obscured by the glove coming towards your face. The additional reflex of blinking before the hit was also something to get used to. Even with your guard up, the field of vision is again obscured by not only the opponents gloves but your own.

Don't get me wrong, an effective jab should be thrown with power but there is much more to the jab then hitting with power.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

As most of you know Kyokushin does not typically allow punches to the face. However, there are some dojos that do train with this aspect in mind and I've been fortunate to have been able to put some gloves on. Immediately one of the differences I've discovered is that the game changes quite a bit when you are allowed to punch to the face. The jab becomes much more useful for setting up combinations as well as in many ways that are not typically apparent if you have not been have not been hit in the face by a jab before. One of the first things I noticed immediately was how much of your field of vision was obscured by the glove coming towards your face. The additional reflex of blinking before the hit was also something to get used to. Even with your guard up, the field of vision is again obscured by not only the opponents gloves but your own.

Don't get me wrong, an effective jab should be thrown with power but there is much more to the jab then hitting with power.

This is so true. Just throwing a hand (even an open hand) towards the face can do a lot to set up other stuff.

 

[skribs]

I know. Thats why I tried to be careful in my wording. One problem with this whole thread is that the thread is too broad brush... and then you want me not to be too broad brush...

When I clicked submit, I thought "there's a post that will anger everyone."

Hitting a stationary object with power is very different than hitting a moving target with power, and its very different again, when the moving target can hit you back with power and is looking to do so.

I think this is just different levels of the same issue. The problem is when someone fails at a higher level and it's assumed they have 0 knowledge at all.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think this is just different levels of the same issue. The problem is when someone fails at a higher level and it's assumed they have 0 knowledge at all.

It's a difference of "no knowledge" vs. "Practical knowledge". If you have knowledge but not practical knowledge, you see what happens in those TMA vs. MMA fights. But if you were to take someone with knowledge and try to transfer it to practical knowledge (ie: have them go to a different school) they should make up that difference much more quickly than someone without knowledge. Since they just need to figure out that last piece to actually make everything work.

 

[drop bear]

It's a difference of "no knowledge" vs. "Practical knowledge". If you have knowledge but not practical knowledge, you see what happens in those TMA vs. MMA fights. But if you were to take someone with knowledge and try to transfer it to practical knowledge (ie: have them go to a different school) they should make up that difference much more quickly than someone without knowledge. Since they just need to figure out that last piece to actually make everything work.

The problem is there is becoming a very good argument for timing as being a fast track for success rather than technical knowledge which is possibly about the least impactful element in a fight.

Which is quite often why these guys are getting bashed.

And this is with techniques that are designed to work at full speed not half speed.

Kit dale has been an advocate of timing based training. And the evidence is he was very successful very quickly.

 

[Buka]

The jab is a good way to find your range. It’s a simple strike to perform and it opens the door for other shots, making it the most important punch in a boxer’s repertoire. It takes very little to no energy to throw, even when you're tired from training you can always work the jab - as opposed to a lot of other punches when your tank is nearly empty. And being the hand closest to the target, it’s usually the fastest shot to land.

It can also be an ideal tool for misdirection and an important stop hit.

 

[CB Jones]

Also, often times the jab sets up the power punch following it.

 

[dvcochran]

The jab is a good way to find your range. It’s a simple strike to perform and it opens the door for other shots, making it the most important punch in a boxer’s repertoire. It takes very little to no energy to throw, even when you're tired from training you can always work the jab - as opposed to a lot of other punches when your tank is nearly empty. And being the hand closest to the target, it’s usually the fastest shot to land.

It can also be an ideal tool for misdirection and an important stop hit.

Did you see Tyson's jabs? It looked like they took a lot of effort but you have to consider the source. I don't ever want to get hit with that jab. The speed between punches is just unreal.