what is the main root of MA

[CuongNhuka]

Martial Arts (in general) come from mans dislike and hatered of his fellow man. Until that is, some clever monk found out Martial Arts are a good from of mediation and phyiscal exercise.
granted this a massive over simplification.

 

[Langenschwert]

Until that is, some clever monk...

Or fencing master:


I speak not against masters of defence indeed, they are to be honored, nor against the science, it is noble, and in my opinion to be preferred next to divinity, for as divinity preserves the soul from hell and the devil, so does this noble science defend the body from wounds & slaughter. And moreover, the exercising of weapons puts away aches, griefs, and diseases, it increases strength, and sharpens the wits. It gives a perfect judgement, it expels melancholy, choleric and evil conceits, it keeps a man in breath, perfect health, and long life. It is unto him that has the perfection thereof, a most friendly and comfortable companion when he is alone, having but only his weapon about him. It puts him out of fear, & in the wars and places of most danger, it makes him bold, hardy and valiant.

-George Silver, 1598

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Xue Sheng]

...and the chicken is saying

"Of course you did. That's why I never do at all."

I figured it out, assuming paleontologists are right.

Birds come from dinosaurs and some dinosaurs laid eggs so the Egg came first, possibly it was smoking, I'm not really sure of that, but it was most definitely, beyond any shadow of doubt that the egg came first.......



Maybe.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Just a few things I would like to add regarding some of the posts I have slowly been reading through.

It is very difficult to say how old a cultural group or civilisation is based on its archaeology. The difficulty is in defining its beginning and end. So when comparing cultures that occurred close together temporally it is difficult to say which is older. As a result, it is difficult to see diffusion patterns. This is further complicated by the fact that such patterns are rarely one-way, so what may appear to be moving from one culture to another may actually be moving in the opposite direction or even moving back along a path it has already traced.

Here's something to ponder regarding this subject. The oldest known urban developments are Catal Huyuk in Turkey and Jericho in the Levant. Could these be the origin of codified martial arts on the Eurasian super-continent?

The oldest 'martial art' I have encountered, that is a set of fighting techniques with a name attached, is from Egypt and is named after the god-thing Sebek. Does this mean that Egypt is the source of codified martial arts? No I don't think so. In the Mahabharata, the great Indian epic written in the second millenium BC, there are descriptions of individual and sets of techniques. There are also things called sacred weapons which appear to require long periods of training and study to master. Could these be martial arts? Probably. Given when the Mahabharata was written it is likely to be a much older oral transmission which might rival the Egyptian sources. But as I said before it is difficult to say which is older.

Personally, I am of the belief that martial arts, in the form we know, have developed many times in different places. Europe, Egypt, India, China, Japan, all have indigenous fighting arts that seem to be different to each other. There are descriptions of codified fighting arts from Mexico, especially among the Aztecs where there are also warrior schools to train elite fighting men. It is very unlikely that the mesoamerican cultures were influenced by any others.

One last thing I would like to point out is that I link codified fighting arts, what we generally call martial arts to urbanised cultures. This is because these agricultural cultures have available free time. Time that can be spent considering and developing the concepts and principles that make up a martial art. Thus I tend to exclude sub-Saharan Africa as a source of codified martial arts because, apart from one or two possibilities, there are no urbanised cultures.

 

[exile]

I hate it when people make all the good points before I get to post! I'm sure the origins are lost in the mists of time. Where there is conflict, there will be Martial Arts. The more conflict there is, the faster they develop... like an arms race.

If it works, and it serves a common human purpose, you can bank on it showing up independently in several places. Look, for example, at the technology used to erect the huge sarsen uprights at Stonehenge in the last building cyle. There's now very clear archaeological evidence for the method, involving shaped logs as rollers, pulley systems to get the masoned blocks onto the rollers, predug pits and a bunch of other things that take advantage of the relative frictionlessness of the wheel, the use of leverage to manipulate extremely heavy objects with relatively long axes, and so on. And this method, with locally different embellishment but virtually identical mechanics, was also used by the ancient Easter Islanders who put those enormous stone head sculptures up. There are only so many ways to manipulate something very big and heavy when you have relatively low populations and and only muscle power. And there seems to have been zip contact between the Easter Islanders and any population in Europe; the EIers were actually among the most isolated of the Oceanic groups. Over and over again, you see the same thing. There are certain resources and physical constraints, representing opportunities and limitations respectively. The solution space that arises from these two dimensions may be rather small. If so, look out for repeated independent discover of one or another of the few solutions available. I suspect the MAs, particularly the empty-handed kind, fall into that category...

As a WMAer, I would like to believe that Pankration was the grand-daddy of all MA, but really... to think that Asians didn't know how to fight until the Greeks came along is kind of silly. Did the Pankrationists influence their Eastern counterparts? Maybe. And maybe the Indians influenced the Greeks.

But the independant development is likely the best theory.

Independent invention probably coexists quite happily with mutual influence. People independently come up with the same key idea, and since they share that idea as a kind of common ground, the somewhat different ways each group implements that key idea will be of interest to them. It's like, if you and the gang over the hill have both independently discovered bicycles, then the shape and placement of their handlebars and how they solve the braking problem is going to be of interest to you and vice versa. But if they've dicovered roller skates instead, then you aren't going have much to say to each other of interest. In principle, one or the other group might adopt the other technology... but it's probably more likely that instead, each group would make up an astonishingly large number of very insulting jokes and comments predicated on the stupidity of bicyles (if you're one of the roller skaters) or roller skates (if you're a cyclist). You know... `how many bicyclists does it take to change a light bulb' sort of thing. (And no, I'm not going to try to figure out what the punch line should be! :lol So you probably can have your cake and eat it to, in terms of contact vs. independent invention.

Simply taking a look at the stances of both German and Japanese swordsmanship seems to confirm that quite well. As well as the similarity between Ringen and Jiu-Jutsu. There was no German knight wandering Japan in the 1300's showing them swordsmanship and grappling, even though the arts are so similar it's spooky.

The limits imposed by swinging a long blade and stabbing with the point of that blade are probably enough to explain most of the swordsmanship resemblances; similarly for the grappling MAs. It would be interesting to work out the space of possibilities in detail on a priori grounds; my guess would be that in neither case would there be an awful lot of alternatives. I love it when I hear of cases like that.

So I will go out on a limb and say that I am the source of all martial arts, since it's just about as proveable as any other theory.

Mark.... think again. PLEASE! Given all the moaning, griping and whingeing that MAists do about the MAs... do you want to be identified as the person all of them can blame for whatever it is they don't like?? Talk about drawing a target and sticking your head in the bullseye... please reconsider!!!

 

[Steel Tiger]

So I will go out on a limb and say that I am the source of all martial arts, since it's just about as proveable as any other theory.

Best regards,

-Mark

AHA!! So it was you! Damn you for getting me stuck in this cycle of study and practice, and study and practice, and study and practice...

By the way, my teacher is a big fan of George Silver and introduced a number of his ideas into his syllabus.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So I will go out on a limb and say that I am the source of all martial arts, since it's just about as proveable as any other theory.

Best regards,

-Mark

so it WAS you..... you and I REALLY need to talk... :uhyeah:

 

[Sukerkin]

Mark.... think again. PLEASE! Given all the moaning, griping and whingeing that MAists do about the MAs... do you want to be identified as the person all of them can blame for whatever it is they don't like?? Talk about drawing a target and sticking your head in the bullseye... please reconsider!!!

ROFL

Just when we starting to get to know and like him too ... is it always the sensible seeming ones that go off the rails and have the roof fall in on them (and can I mix any more metaphors whilst I'm about it )?

Sorry to not have anything substantive to contribute at this time but I'm at work and have to type hastily (and think little ("No change there then!" choruses everyone )).

 

[exile]

AHA!! So it was you! Damn you for getting me stuck in this cycle of study and practice, and study and practice, and study and practice...

By the way, my teacher is a big fan of George Silver and introduced a number of his ideas into his syllabus.

so it WAS you..... you and I REALLY need to talk... :uhyeah:

ROFL

Just when we starting to get to know and like him too ... is it always the sensible seeming ones that go off the rails and have the roof fall in on them (and can I mix any more metaphors whilst I'm about it )?
.

See?? See??!!! Told you.... and this is just the beginning. And these chaps aren't even the real complainers. There are I few I can think of...

My advice: a quick retraction, with lots of `... surely you could tell I was joking...' type asides. Or maybe you should claim that you blacked out, and when you came to you found yourself in front of your computer monitor with a whole bunch of MT and e-mail messages you'd sent, and absolutely no memory of having sent any of them. Whatever it is, do it quickly....

 

[Xue Sheng]

See?? See??!!! Told you.... and this is just the beginning. And these chaps aren't even the real complainers. There are I few I can think of...

My advice: a quick retraction, with lots of `... surely you could tell I was joking...' type asides. Or maybe you should claim that you blacked out, and when you came to you found yourself in front of your computer monitor with a whole bunch of MT and e-mail messages you'd sent, and absolutely no memory of having sent any of them. Whatever it is, do it quickly....

To late.... Langenschwert.... HE'S the one responsible for all this...... HE's the one responsible for ASHIDA KIM (to name only ONE)..... What were you thinking man?

We really need to talk.... oh and when we do.... NO swords allowed. :uhyeah:

 

[Shaderon]

No he's had it now, we've seen it and we've gotten it in writing. It's ALL his fault.

Right Lang, while we've got you here, I've got some VERY expensive Chiropractic and Physiotherapy sessions that I need to claim back and lots of sick time from injuries that I can prove are directly YOUR fault since you invented MA's.

I'm calling my lawyer now.

NO ONE beats him up before I sue him ok?

 

[Langenschwert]

To late.... Langenschwert.... HE'S the one responsible for all this...... HE's the one responsible for ASHIDA KIM (to name only ONE)..... What were you thinking man?

But really... it wasn't my fault! See? --->

We really need to talk.... oh and when we do.... NO swords allowed. :uhyeah:

Ah, but if that's a challenge to duel (what... my excuses don't get me off the hook????), I get to pick the weapons and the time! Here's your glove back. Longswords at dawn.

And, being the source of all Martial Arts (and thus, apparently, time travel), I will be difficult to defeat! Here is some footage of my last duel. I was foolish enough to challenge, and was issued a Falchion, but prevailed nonetheless. I'm taller than I look here, though:

Be warned!!!

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Shaderon]

But really... it wasn't my fault! See? --->

Ah, but if that's a challenge to duel (what... my excuses don't get me off the hook????), I get to pick the weapons and the time! Here's your glove back. Longswords at dawn.

And, being the source of all Martial Arts (and thus, apparently, time travel), I will be difficult to defeat! Here is some footage of my last duel. I was foolish enough to challenge, and was issued a Falchion, but prevailed nonetheless. I'm taller than I look here, though:

Be warned!!!

Best regards,

-Mark

You may be good in a fight, but is your lawyer good in the courtroom?

Post all the challenges and affermations you like Mark, I'm printing and saving each and every word.... Mwahahahahahaha

 

[Xue Sheng]

But really... it wasn't my fault! See? --->

Ah, but if that's a challenge to duel (what... my excuses don't get me off the hook????), I get to pick the weapons and the time! Here's your glove back. Longswords at dawn.

And, being the source of all Martial Arts (and thus, apparently, time travel), I will be difficult to defeat! Here is some footage of my last duel. I was foolish enough to challenge, and was issued a Falchion, but prevailed nonetheless. I'm taller than I look here, though:

Be warned!!!

Best regards,

-Mark

Impressive

Regardless

"You have insulted my family and the Shaolin temple"

And Choice of weapons.... What are you talking about... I train Chinese styles.... There are no choices

OK Chinese Dao and 40 paces..... of course the Dao is rather ineffective at 40 paces (But I can do a lot of Very cool looking flailing around with it) but SO BE IT. :uhyeah:

 

[Langenschwert]

You may be good in a fight, but is your lawyer good in the courtroom?

Lawyer? Lawyer?????? Varlet, I scoff at such modern new-fangled legal artifice. We shall have justice according to Swabian law, end engage in a Judicial Duel!!! Doesn't that seem like fun? Longsword, spears, funky shields... much better than a stuffy ol' courtroom!

Judicially,

-Mark

 

[Langenschwert]

OK Chinese Dao and 40 paces

Pool noodles at one pace?

-Mark

 

[Xue Sheng]

Lawyer? Lawyer?????? Varlet, I scoff at such modern new-fangled legal artifice. We shall have justice according to Swabian law, end engage in a Judicial Duel!!! Doesn't that seem like fun? Longsword, spears, funky shields... much better than a stuffy ol' courtroom!

Judicially,

-Mark

Actually Shaderon he has a point, it does sound much more exciting than a courtroom.... possibly not as safe, but definitely more exciting

Pool noodles at one pace?

-Mark

Ok you have chosen your weapon and it works for me.... you bring a pool noodle..... I'll bring a Dao :EG:

 

[Last Fearner]

Fear not, Langenschwert! I can take all the pressure and attention off of you by simply stating that you are wrong - - it was I who started the whole Martial Art concept!

I am sure that the throng will be more than happy to turn their venom on me, and it will be done with greater ease, pleasure, and more serious intensity (probably because some would believe that I am serious- )

You are now free, Langenschwert, to slip off into the shadows, and let the target fall on my head - - but do it quickly lest they remember your faux pas forever!
I will guard your retreat... :knight:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Fear not, Langenschwert! I can take all the pressure and attention off of you by simply stating that you are wrong - - it was I who started the whole Martial Art concept!

I am sure that the throng will be more than happy to turn their venom on me, and it will be done with greater ease, pleasure, and more serious intensity (probably because some would believe that I am serious- )

You are now free, Langenschwert, to slip off into the shadows, and let the target fall on my head - - but do it quickly lest they remember your faux pas forever!
I will guard your retreat... :knight:

Or he could take it as a challenge to his integrity and then I am off the hook in regards to the duel.

 

[Langenschwert]

Fear not, Langenschwert! I can take all the pressure and attention off of you by simply stating that you are wrong - - it was I who started the whole Martial Art concept!

Thank you for your most valiant offer, but I simply cannot shirk my responsibility as the progenitor of the combat arts. A simple sojourn into the realm of etymology will prove that I am what I claim to be. Hearken:

My name is Mark, which is derived from Mars, the Roman God of War. Martial Arts means Arts of Mars. As aforementioned, I also invented (will invent? Will have invented? I ain't tellin'!) time travel, hence I posit that the persona of Mars is based on ME, thus negating temporal evidence against my suit.

It's all my fault. But it's not my fault that y'all chose to train. Read Illusions by Richard Bach. Thou art thine own driving force. Q.E.D.

I will guard your retreat... :knight:

Retreat? Retreat??? Perish the thought! I would not fain depart the field of battle with nary a blow being struck. A churl, varlet and yea even a cowardly cur would I then be.

Those that still beareth grievance against me may try my mettle hand-to-hand in the lists, on the duelling grounds or on the field of battle. I shall await all comers with mine trusty longsword. May your blades break and shields shatter, may your harness fail thee at thy uttermost need, and may thy widows and widowers find no surcease from grief at thy falling before me.

Thou challengest me at thine own great peril. Tread carefully, fellow warriors, lest the Goddess of Chivalry lay thee low at my feet.

Martially,

-Mark