Common Core for MA, SD Instruction?

[dvcochran]

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

i dont think many here would argue that we want more "knuckle head instructors" but the issue is, that someone has to determine who and what constitutes a knuckle head. for that you need a board, who sits on the board?
like i said if there is a board then that board needs Government backing otherwise it is like Gerry said and its just another organization and we already have more of those than we need in self defense.
the problem itself is the board and their oversight. as history has shown as soon as you have a board *(more so with government backing) you will have corruption and government over reach.
the boards first priority is not those that it over see's but rather its own self interest. those in power want to stay in power.
lets use this Martial Talk group as an example (sorry people im going to have some fun at your expense)

• @gpseymour is going to push for @AngryHobbit to also be on the board so that his vote is doubled in his favor.
• I am going to push for continuous training in things like Neuroscience, Ethology, Biomechanics ect.. so this will inflate the costs to the instructors and Schools.
• @Tez3 will want to mandate that only women instructors can teach female students.
• @drop bear will still hold his opinion that the only answer to everything is "Do MMA" .
• The government will then get a complaint from a disgruntled mother about her child and the Government will mandate a Social Justice Human Rights committee be put in place (with that mother as one of the three on the committee) as a result Drop bear will be pulled in front of the SJW tribunal for promoting "Toxic Masculinity" he will then be fined and barred from teaching ever again (since his licence will be pulled) and that will be the end of drop bear AND ALL OF MMA.
• equality of outcome will be the law of the land and everyone will get a black belt based on 1000 hours of training.
• Me and Gerry will quit and Angry hobbit will be even more angry. we we be replaced by candidates "approved" by the Human Rights committee to allow for equal representation on the board assuring inclusivity of all 74 genders and ethnicities and every minority group.

so the point is once you create something like this you have no control of the end result. you've basically created a Frankenstein monster that you have no control of.

Those are some strong arguments. So are you saying the status quo is ok? Let bad and worse be as long as it doesn't affect you or yours?

 

[dvcochran]

Well no the tanning out puts depend on the tubes and the genetics of the person for each visit.

But your not answering my question, if you don't measure out puts, you can't possibly know your inputs are correct , how will you measure outputs?

I don't know. But you cannot have an output with an input(s).

 

[pdg]

I haven't seen mention of nationality...

As it stands, depending on which art, you can voluntarily align your school with any choice of governing body in a choice of countries. By doing so, you agree to uphold their standards and ideals.

If it's compulsory to obtain license from a central overriding governing body - where is that body, who gets a say in what the standards are and what happens if you ignore it?

Is a US based legislative board going to prosecute a school operating in South Africa?

What about inspections and assessments? Do board representatives travel the globe/disk to assess each school or are the instructors expected to present themselves?

Then to the standards if it's about self defence - a US based board is likely to look quite heavily toward firearms, which we (in the UK) have no real reason to consider - but, if standards are centralised that would have to be pointlessly included, or pointlessly excluded if the situation is reversed.

In other fields concerning stuff like university degrees, it's quite common to have to recertify if you emigrate - is MA somehow special?



Oh, and the tanning salon comparison made earlier - I can go and open a solarium tomorrow if I want.

I don't need a licence to operate one, all I have to do is ensure all of my clients are over 18 and comply with the generic public health regulations.

I only need to licence if I play music (public performance licence required) or offer services such as tanning/botox injections, piercings, stuff like that.

 

[pdg]

The tanning analogy refers to minimum requirements to open and keep the doors open.

For just tanning, I can't find any minimum requirements in force here (except what I mentioned above, age limits and hygiene).

Even insurance isn't legally compulsory.

 

[dvcochran]

Unfortunately, even that goal is probably only achievable in theory. We could require some training and certification in pedagogy, but beyond that we'd be getting into validation of styles, schools, and associations - and that's where it gets all sticky.

I have been out to the ownership side of the Dojang for a while. It gives me a different perspective now that the numbers game has nothing to do with it, not that it ever really did but it is a real construct. Society will continue to pressure and try to and push conformity. Just like it is doing on many sports today. I am not talking about conformity but more of an accord to be proactive, at least within the respective existing organizations to create a set of standards (minimum). Something that a school should be required to, and want to adhere to.
As someone else queried, outputs will be directly measured by the number of participants. Unfortunately, quality doesn't always follow the same path.

 

[dvcochran]

For just tanning, I can't find any minimum requirements in force here (except what I mentioned above, age limits and hygiene).

Even insurance isn't legally compulsory.

Not sure about nationally, but at least in Tennessee, there are state board requirements.

 

[dvcochran]

Much like a hair salon.

 

[dvcochran]

Just looked it up, the FDA regulates indoor tanning and its use.

 

[pdg]

Not sure about nationally, but at least in Tennessee, there are state board requirements.

See, it'd be hard enough to align school standards across the US, let alone around the world.

At the end of the day, modern practitioners of MA are mainly hobbyists - the people who verifiably need some form of training get sanctioned training.

It'd be like trying to regulate the nightclub industry based on the quality of music they play - or having international minimum stock levels in rivers for fishing - or the government legislating how fizzy beer has to be in a pub...

 

[pdg]

Just looked it up, the FDA regulates indoor tanning and its use.

The FDA has no authority or jurisdiction whatsoever over me or my activities.

 

[pdg]

Oh, and I just looked it up.

In England, I would need to register for a tanning salon only if I were to offer extra beauty treatments and/or massage (and that's just a registration, not a qualification/licence).

As a hairdresser, that would be down to my local council to decide if I need to register with them - there's nothing national and it may be voluntary anyway.


But, to draw the parallel - even if I was a registered hairdresser or barber, I could still be crap. I could do really bad haircuts and charge lots of money.

Maybe I could call it 'McHair' or something

 

[pdg]

Remember when you were new and totally ignorant to MA. How did you know you were not walking into a rip off? Not to say it would ever be fool proof. I am just very tired to the way bad schools damage the MA reputation over and over, usually with a very similar MO.

To go back to this and make the comparison - how does a tanning salon or hairdresser displaying a licence in their window assure any sort of quality?

In the same way, you could still be walking into a rip off if you get a blotchy tan or bad hair, and you'd have exactly the same level of comeback - i.e. none.

 

[dvcochran]

To go back to this and make the comparison - how does a tanning salon or hairdresser displaying a licence in their window assure any sort of quality?

In the same way, you could still be walking into a rip off if you get a blotchy tan or bad hair, and you'd have exactly the same level of comeback - i.e. none.

How so? When others see the blotchy tan or bad hair, they will likely not go to said salon. There is not as much public profile for most MA schools, and even if there was, how would the public know how to measure what they saw?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The tanning analogy refers to minimum requirements to open and keep the doors open. In no way does it guarantee how good a tan a person gets, or in your example outputs. That depends largely on how many times they show up to set in the booth. Same would be, and is true of any MA student. Quantity has very little to do with quality.

If you're only going to measure inputs, what input would you measure to avoid the situation you refer to in your post immediately previous (bad schools damaging the reputation of MA)?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Those are some strong arguments. So are you saying the status quo is ok? Let bad and worse be as long as it doesn't affect you or yours?

I think he's saying the proposal is worse than the status quo.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How so? When others see the blotchy tan or bad hair, they will likely not go to said salon. There is not as much public profile for most MA schools, and even if there was, how would the public know how to measure what they saw?

That's assuming others recognized the tan/haircut as coming from that salon, but you make a valid point. However, nothing you've mentioned seems likely to address the output side (quality of product) any more than the limited regulations of hair salons ensures quality haircuts.

 

[pdg]

How so? When others see the blotchy tan or bad hair, they will likely not go to said salon. There is not as much public profile for most MA schools, and even if there was, how would the public know how to measure what they saw?

Ah, but how do you measure haircuts?

There are 3 people in your avatar, and if I had my hair styled in the same way as any of those I don't think it'd suit me at all - so it'd be subjectively a crap haircut. Likewise, my hair really wouldn't suit the person on the right

Also, without going up to a person and saying "your hair/tan is terrible, where did you get it done?" how do you identify the source unless you see it done?



There is a relatively large chain of MA schools here, the owner/founder is a millionaire due to it - but there are bad reviews all over and a demonstration by him on youtube that is a total comedy (or it would be if he wasn't serious - pm me if you want a name, I'll not do it publicly). That's public exposure, yet it's still running as a hugely successful business.

There are also arts that I'm not a fan of, I wouldn't consider studying them, but others love it - how would any central standard account for that?

 

[dvcochran]

I think he's saying the proposal is worse than the status quo.

Do you agree there has been a steady decline in participation and, I feel quality in the last 20+++ years? It is hard to see where the bottom will be unless some efforts are made to stem the bleeding.

 

[frank raud]

I have 2 types of punches. That come from the same techniques. The first punch is for sparring. It allows me to practice a punch that would otherwise cause great harm. The second punch should only be used in a self-defense scenario. It's the same technique, but the targeting is different. In sparring I may land the punches on non-vital areas. In self-defense I would be targeting those vital areas.

Boxing does the same thing with their rule of "No hitting behind the head.." In a self-defense scenario you can take those same techniques and hit where sporting rules won't allow. So in cases like this you have 1 technique but 2 different types of punches.

Op stated " There would have to be more delineation between Martial Arts and Martial sport for one thing." Your explanation is why certain techniques are not done in a sporting scenario for safety. My question is how to have more delineation between Martial Arts and Martial sports when there are already rules in place that define what is a legal target in a particular sport." It's the same technique, " How do you define(in order to delineate) what is martial art and what is martial sport, and who gets to decide?

 

[frank raud]

You are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Remember when you were new and totally ignorant to MA. How did you know you were not walking into a rip off? Not to say it would ever be fool proof. I am just very tired to the way bad schools damage the MA reputation over and over, usually with a very similar MO.

Your post, which I quoted, stated
"There would have to be more delineation between Martial Arts and Martial sport for one thing." When I question how to achieve that, you state I am looking at it from the wrong perspective. Not only do you not answer my question, but you tell me I'm looking at it incorrectly. You not only want to regulate martial arts, but how I think.