Common Core for MA, SD Instruction?

[hoshin1600]

Those are some strong arguments. So are you saying the status quo is ok? Let bad and worse be as long as it doesn't affect you or yours?

Do you agree there has been a steady decline in participation and, I feel quality in the last 20+++ years? It is hard to see where the bottom will be unless some efforts are made to stem the bleeding.

I can't speek for other countries but here in the US the status quo is actually doing quite well. I believe your outlook of martial arts has a heavy negative bias. Participation in martial arts has actually grown significantly. In the last 30 years charlatans have declined.
I don't really see a problem that needs to be "fixed" thru legislation or regulations. There is no decline in participation, there has been an overall growth in the market. But that growth has been in MMA and now moving to reality based martial arts. So the numbers have shifted away from the old traditional schools.
The answer for bad martial arts and instructors is a knowledgeable market not regulation. The internet is a wonderful thing. We don't see people pushing carts down the street selling cancer curing ointment and tonics (snake oil). Why? Because the general public is educated enough to know better. The same is happening in martial arts. With the Internet the public has more access to information now then ever and the level of knowledge is growing. If anything it is the actual instructors who are being left behind because they are not active in continuous improvement and keeping up with the knowledge base line. The biggest issue today is not martial art charlatans but rather legit guys that learned their art in the 60's and 70's and still believe in old wives tales of the martial arts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you agree there has been a steady decline in participation and, I feel quality in the last 20+++ years? It is hard to see where the bottom will be unless some efforts are made to stem the bleeding.

I don't know the numbers, but I suspect participation has shifted - as it does over time, in waves. MMA gyms have absorbed some folks who used to head to TKD and Karate schools that compete. And a lot of other folks have gone to BJJ, which is possibly the art with the highest name recognition. As for quality, I don't see a decline in quality. In my area, BJJ has only become really common in the last 20 years, and they tend to create decent output. The crappiest places I know have been in business for decades and seem to be doing well, so their growth could be seen as a decline in quality.

And I've only been running my own program for 2.5 years, so there's been a sharp upswing in quality during that time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Op stated " There would have to be more delineation between Martial Arts and Martial sport for one thing." Your explanation is why certain techniques are not done in a sporting scenario for safety. My question is how to have more delineation between Martial Arts and Martial sports when there are already rules in place that define what is a legal target in a particular sport." It's the same technique, " How do you define(in order to delineate) what is martial art and what is martial sport, and who gets to decide?

And I'm not even sure the delineation is useful. It's pretty easy to see that competition can be a good training tool, even if your personal and/or school focus is self-defense. If we attempt to draw a dividing line between the two, we start to remove that training tool. We also eliminate something a lot of folks find a fun part of their training, and which keeps them consistently improving, thus contributing to their self-defense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can't speek for other countries but here in the US the status quo is actually doing quite well. I believe your outlook of martial arts has a heavy negative bias. Participation in martial arts has actually grown significantly. In the last 30 years charlatans have declined.
I don't really see a problem that needs to be "fixed" thru legislation or regulations. There is no decline in participation, there has been an overall growth in the market. But that growth has been in MMA and now moving to reality based martial arts. So the numbers have shifted away from the old traditional schools.
The answer for bad martial arts and instructors is a knowledgeable market not regulation. The internet is a wonderful thing. We don't see people pushing carts down the street selling cancer curing ointment and tonics (snake oil). Why? Because the general public is educated enough to know better. The same is happening in martial arts. With the Internet the public has more access to information now then ever and the level of knowledge is growing. If anything it is the actual instructors who are being left behind because they are not active in continuous improvement and keeping up with the knowledge base line. The biggest issue today is not martial art charlatans but rather legit guys that learned their art in the 60's and 70's and still believe in old wives tales of the martial arts.

I believe much of this is true. At the same time, there are "snake oil" salesmen out there. There's a multi-billion-dollar industry (only counting the US) built on them, and the internet actually allows them to build credibility at the same time that it provides evidence there's no science behind their "cures". The same support (via confirmation bias) can happen with some of the claims of MA. We actually see some evidence of it in the posters who show up here asking questions about art X or system Y, based upon what appears to be comments they've read below YouTube videos. I'm not sure the organic evolution of the internet as an information source necessarily helps for entirely inexperienced new students.

 

[dvcochran]

Your post, which I quoted, stated
"There would have to be more delineation between Martial Arts and Martial sport for one thing." When I question how to achieve that, you state I am looking at it from the wrong perspective. Not only do you not answer my question, but you tell me I'm looking at it incorrectly. You not only want to regulate martial arts, but how I think.[/QUOTE

I was simply asking you to look through the eyes of inexperience. You, having experience have a conditioned opinion and it seems you are commenting only from that perspective. Never did I say you were incorrect, your words. I am asking what do you think, in no way "telling you how to think".
To the MA/MS question; Possibly MS schools would be better, more accurately represented as gyms. Now we are getting into semantics.

 

[hoshin1600]

I believe much of this is true. At the same time, there are "snake oil" salesmen out there. There's a multi-billion-dollar industry (only counting the US) built on them, and the internet actually allows them to build credibility at the same time that it provides evidence there's no science behind their "cures". The same support (via confirmation bias) can happen with some of the claims of MA. We actually see some evidence of it in the posters who show up here asking questions about art X or system Y, based upon what appears to be comments they've read below YouTube videos. I'm not sure the organic evolution of the internet as an information source necessarily helps for entirely inexperienced new students.

i agree with what you are saying but i think in general a better educated public works better than government or organizational controls.
so yes there is a lot of misinformation out there but that base line of correct knowledge is increasing. we could assume that it is a Pareto distribution but the over all volume of good/ correct information is still increasing. the internet increases the volume of information over all. it doesnt change the balance of correct VS incorrect information but it does increase the baseline of good knowledge by default.

 

[hoshin1600]

People can only be deceived when they are too blind to see the truth.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I believe much of this is true. At the same time, there are "snake oil" salesmen out there. There's a multi-billion-dollar industry (only counting the US) built on them, and the internet actually allows them to build credibility at the same time that it provides evidence there's no science behind their "cures". The same support (via confirmation bias) can happen with some of the claims of MA. We actually see some evidence of it in the posters who show up here asking questions about art X or system Y, based upon what appears to be comments they've read below YouTube videos. I'm not sure the organic evolution of the internet as an information source necessarily helps for entirely inexperienced new students.

The Internet often causes more confusion for inexperienced students as to what works and what doesn't work. There are a lot of videos that give the appearance that something works. Way too many demo presentations in terms of self defense.

 

[JowGaWolf]

i agree with what you are saying but i think in general a better educated public works better than government or organizational controls.
so yes there is a lot of misinformation out there but that base line of correct knowledge is increasing. we could assume that it is a Pareto distribution but the over all volume of good/ correct information is still increasing. the internet increases the volume of information over all. it doesnt change the balance of correct VS incorrect information but it does increase the baseline of good knowledge by default.

Even education of the public must meet some form of standard. Think about today's journalism when there are no standards.

 

[dvcochran]

If you're only going to measure inputs, what input would you measure to avoid the situation you refer to in your post immediately previous (bad schools damaging the reputation of MA)?

In the simplest of terms, an input is a 1 or 0. Sometimes they a scalar. In the objective, even then the effect on the output is considered binary. So it would not be a question of measuring the input as that would be an automatic part of the process, but rather what inputs are of value to answer a given question or trigger a result. In the automation & control world, you usually know what outputs you need in very large brush strokes, (I need to make xxx # of Y part, etc..). The thought process of defining process is always the toughest part. I forever play the "what if" game with clients trying to read their mind and foresee possible problems, bottlenecks, and hazards. I feel the same is true when analyzing an existing system. Many inputs already exist. Are they discrete or virtual, and do they have analytical value. Often, eliminating emotions is the most difficult part of discovery when dealing with an existing system/process. The same is true in our discussion. It has nothing to do with style or rank or system.
Some very good comments were made about MMA and BJJ and other similar styles being a large part of the recent evolution of MA which I agree, I probably haven't given enough weight to. Also, I am slightly tilted to the "older" more traditional system(s) especially when discussing it from a public perspective. Also the ease of gaining at least a limited education through virtual formats does make it easier to be an informed consumer however, the question of confirmation is increased exponentially when all one has to do is click on Youtube and think the can learn an art, Martial or not. The proof needs to be in the real.

 

[dvcochran]

i agree with what you are saying but i think in general a better educated public works better than government or organizational controls.
so yes there is a lot of misinformation out there but that base line of correct knowledge is increasing. we could assume that it is a Pareto distribution but the over all volume of good/ correct information is still increasing. the internet increases the volume of information over all. it doesnt change the balance of correct VS incorrect information but it does increase the baseline of good knowledge by default.

I hope you are correct, I really cant say. It would be a great graph to look at but now we are back to what is an input of analytical value.

 

[hoshin1600]

In the simplest of terms, an input is a 1 or 0. Sometimes they a scalar. In the objective, even then the effect on the output is considered binary. So it would not be a question of measuring the input as that would be an automatic part of the process, but rather what inputs are of value to answer a given question or trigger a result. In the automation & control world, you usually know what outputs you need in very large brush strokes, (I need to make xxx # of Y part, etc..). The thought process of defining process is always the toughest part. I forever play the "what if" game with clients trying to read their mind and foresee possible problems, bottlenecks, and hazards. I feel the same is true when analyzing an existing system. Many inputs already exist. Are they discrete or virtual, and do they have analytical value. Often, eliminating emotions is the most difficult part of discovery when dealing with an existing system/process. The same is true in our discussion. It has nothing to do with style or rank or system.
Some very good comments were made about MMA and BJJ and other similar styles being a large part of the recent evolution of MA which I agree, I probably haven't given enough weight to. Also, I am slightly tilted to the "older" more traditional system(s) especially when discussing it from a public perspective. Also the ease of gaining at least a limited education through virtual formats does make it easier to be an informed consumer however, the question of confirmation is increased exponentially when all one has to do is click on Youtube and think the can learn an art, Martial or not. The proof needs to be in the real.

it is posts like this one that remind me how intelligent some of the posters are here and it makes me smile.

 

[jobo]

In the simplest of terms, an input is a 1 or 0. Sometimes they a scalar. In the objective, even then the effect on the output is considered binary. So it would not be a question of measuring the input as that would be an automatic part of the process, but rather what inputs are of value to answer a given question or trigger a result. In the automation & control world, you usually know what outputs you need in very large brush strokes, (I need to make xxx # of Y part, etc..). The thought process of defining process is always the toughest part. I forever play the "what if" game with clients trying to read their mind and foresee possible problems, bottlenecks, and hazards. I feel the same is true when analyzing an existing system. Many inputs already exist. Are they discrete or virtual, and do they have analytical value. Often, eliminating emotions is the most difficult part of discovery when dealing with an existing system/process. The same is true in our discussion. It has nothing to do with style or rank or system.
Some very good comments were made about MMA and BJJ and other similar styles being a large part of the recent evolution of MA which I agree, I probably haven't given enough weight to. Also, I am slightly tilted to the "older" more traditional system(s) especially when discussing it from a public perspective. Also the ease of gaining at least a limited education through virtual formats does make it easier to be an informed consumer however, the question of confirmation is increased exponentially when all one has to do is click on Youtube and think the can learn an art, Martial or not. The proof needs to be in the real.

Just writing a post full of nonsense, doesn't alter the fact, that out puts are dependent on inputs, if you have no idea what out puts you want and how they will be measured, then you have no idea what inputs are required, which makes all your Input suggestions worthless, or to out it anotherway, where is your output analysis and feed back loop

 

[frank raud]

"Possibly MS schools would be better, more accurately represented as gyms. Now we are getting into semantics." Please explain how you would categorize a judo club. Is it a martial sport ,or a martial art? As you want to separate martial art from martial sport, what is the defining differences between the two categories? Does competition not have a place in martial arts?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I feel it defames all MA when someone promotes themselves to a high rank

Meh. I think self-promotions are meaningless, but there are plenty of widely respected "big-name" instructors (especially those who created their own arts) have rank that was either self-awarded or awarded by their own students/organizations they created/etc. Anyway, this isn't a new problem.

or comes with a new MA style and starts promoting it as "the best".

I'm not a fan of self-aggrandizement either, but this sort of extreme belief in what they have created isn't uncommon among the sort of person who would create a new style in the first place. Helio Gracie may have been an egomaniac, but he helped the martial arts world advance significantly.

There would have to be more delineation between Martial Arts and Martial sport for one thing.

Not so sure about that. As others have pointed out, martial "sports" can often be a better source for developing fighting skills than many explicitly non-sport "martial arts". It can also be problematic to separate the two aspects. I teach BJJ as a martial art. Some of my peers (in the same school) teach it more as a sport. I don't think either of us is wrong.

The intent is more about quality of instruction and certification, to weed out the knucklehead "instructors", hopefully remove some of the social and verbal inaccuracies leading to bad reputation for all MA, and improve confidence in choosing it as an activity .

Remember when you were new and totally ignorant to MA. How did you know you were not walking into a rip off?

The problem is: who gets to decide who the knuckle-heads and rip-off artists are? Some devotees of MMA and associated arts would regard all instructors of (for example) Bujinkan Taijutsu as being deluded rip-off artists. Some devotees of the Bujinkan would regard MMA practitioners as knuckleheads who don't understand the difference between sport and real street self-defense. Even within the same art - look at the arguments in the Wing Chun forums. Many WC practitioners seem to feel that 90% of the WC being taught is crap. They just can't agree on who is teaching the good 10%.

Do you agree there has been a steady decline in participation and, I feel quality in the last 20+++ years? It is hard to see where the bottom will be unless some efforts are made to stem the bleeding.

I don't have any statistics for martial arts participation over the last 20 years. I don't see a decline in quality. For me personally, I think I have access to much better training today than I did 20 years ago.

 

[Glenn67]

Yes, but I have no idea what it could be and how to police it,

Tmas, have to the most part been watered down by social presures, people just Arnt as tough as they once were , People cry if they get punched, so you have a good % of people learning to fight with out fighting, exercising with out effort oR comitment. You will get what We now have,

The new self defense systems promise to do what tmas,cant, but fall on the same hurdle, you can't Learn to be good at self defense with out experiencing pain and discomfort, an advertising campaign that read come to our club and be beaten up Three times a week, so you don't get beaten up once every 5years, may be a had sell to snowflakes

You got to be able to take some pain if you want to be a winner.

 

[dvcochran]

Just writing a post full of nonsense, doesn't alter the fact, that out puts are dependent on inputs, if you have no idea what out puts you want and how they will be measured, then you have no idea what inputs are required, which makes all your Input suggestions worthless, or to out it anotherway, where is your output analysis and feed back loop

Clearly you didn’t read my post.

 

[jobo]

Clearly you didn’t read my post.

I did indeed, it reminded me of a boss I had once, who would attempt to answer questions on which he was clueless, by using technical terms with out any understanding in the forlorn hope of bamboozeling people over his undrrstanding, your post is nonsensical to those of us who have learnt a living doing processed design for management systems, give me a single example of a binary input on a organisation Process flow chart

 

[Danny T]

I feel it defames all MA when someone promotes themselves to a high rank or comes with a new MA style and starts promoting it as "the best".

Does it really mean something? Other than Japanese and some Korean styles most good martial arts practitioners who have come on to the world stage are self ranked because their systems didn't have rankings or belts they simply trained. Many were family systems passed down by their parents or other family member.

The intent is more about quality of instruction and certification, to weed out the knucklehead "instructors", hopefully remove some of the social and verbal inaccuracies leading to bad reputation for all MA, and improve confidence in choosing it as an activity.

I'm in agreement with Tony on this...'who decides'. I am a full instructor in the wing chun association I am affiliated with under a highly respected wing chun practitioner originally from Hong Kong and that lineage is well respected...By Some and not so much by others. I feel certain there are people under the wing chun banner who feel I'd pass for a knucklehead wing chunner because I don't teach or apply my wing chun specifically the way they learned. Who makes that decision?

Then when it comes to sport vs whatever???
Look at Judo. There are many Judo clubs that don't teach Atemi-waza: the body-striking techniques in Judo. Many today don't even know there is an Atemi-Waza (striking) aspect. Are those Knucklehead instructors as well?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In the simplest of terms, an input is a 1 or 0. Sometimes they a scalar. In the objective, even then the effect on the output is considered binary. So it would not be a question of measuring the input as that would be an automatic part of the process, but rather what inputs are of value to answer a given question or trigger a result. In the automation & control world, you usually know what outputs you need in very large brush strokes, (I need to make xxx # of Y part, etc..). The thought process of defining process is always the toughest part. I forever play the "what if" game with clients trying to read their mind and foresee possible problems, bottlenecks, and hazards. I feel the same is true when analyzing an existing system. Many inputs already exist. Are they discrete or virtual, and do they have analytical value. Often, eliminating emotions is the most difficult part of discovery when dealing with an existing system/process. The same is true in our discussion. It has nothing to do with style or rank or system.
Some very good comments were made about MMA and BJJ and other similar styles being a large part of the recent evolution of MA which I agree, I probably haven't given enough weight to. Also, I am slightly tilted to the "older" more traditional system(s) especially when discussing it from a public perspective. Also the ease of gaining at least a limited education through virtual formats does make it easier to be an informed consumer however, the question of confirmation is increased exponentially when all one has to do is click on Youtube and think the can learn an art, Martial or not. The proof needs to be in the real.

Automation systems don't make an effective model for this. I think farming is a better model. It's very difficult to define what "good output" is in farming, as values will vary. Some of the tastiest produce is not often farmed, because it doesn't meet consumer expectations (uniform appearance, etc.) or because it's not as durable as a blander option. We see this in MA, as well. And what's the "right" size for an apple? Some folks want bigger ones. Some prefer hand-sized (which varies by, well, hand size). Again, pretty similar to what we struggle with in MA. We won't have discrete inputs that are easily categorized and link directly to discrete and identifiable outputs. Even some of the inputs that initially seem like no-brainers won't hold up as general rules.