Taekwondo, waste of time?

[drop bear]

Wrestling probably has the best toolset for knife defence.

When you see people go live with knives and have even vaguely any success. You will see wrestling concepts at play almost always. Roman Greco specifically?

Now you could tweak those concepts to be knife specific and do a system. But they are hard to get access to. Where the basic ingredients taught by really good practitioners are comparatively easy to get.

And this goes towards my other point about cross-training specific rule sets to not cheat on yourself.

 

[JowGaWolf]

1. Depends on your goals. If your only goal is self defense you will waste a lot of time and energy in traditional martial arts.
2. If your only goal is to compete in a Martial sport - Kickboxing, Grappling or combination thereof. You will waste a lot of time and energy training in a TMA.
2, Depends as much on the school as the system.

For many years I wondered if being proficient t certain kicks was a waste of time since they were rarely or never seen in MMA

Examples: Head kicks didn't work - then they did.
Lead leg Side Kicks didn't work - Then Cung Lee came along.
Back Kicks didn't work - then they did.
Spinning kicks didn't work - then they did.

I think these work because MMA fighters are more open minded about techniques from the stand point of trying the techniques in sparring and in competition.

TMA practioners rarely go beyond the form to application. To make it worst, sparring outside the system was the exception and not the norm. Jow Ga Kung Fu makes more sense to me and is easier to use when I spar against someone outside of my system.

 

[marvin8]

When you see people go live with knives and have even vaguely any success. You will see wrestling concepts at play almost always. Roman Greco specifically?

I believe Kennedy's demo is misleading. One should understand the safe zone, fight zone and enter when it's safe, not rely only on wrestling techniques. Do MMA!

GN (Paulo from Funker-Tactical) in your Kennedy video (from my past notes)...

At 1:44 of the followings video, "What doesn't work is the bent arm disarms and the moves that require your opponent to mysteriously leave his arm extended while you fumble your way through some preposterous disarm or the massive over committal defenses that will leave you dead if they don’t work for any reason. Moves that don’t work. …

$10,000 Challenge to Funker-Tactical. If you can catch any one of my 300 knife attacks in a row (at normal intensity) in a Russian tie, I will give you $10,000."

In this video, I respond very directly to Funker Tactical's straw-man argument, and issue a friendly challenge of my own. Will he respond? Not sure... you should ask him.

However, Paulo from Funker-Tactical can't catch any knife attacks in a "Russian tie." Paulo has not accepted the challenge, yet:

A real knife fight where the attacker moves, doesn't stand still.

Active Self Protection
Sep 23, 2021

Family Beef Leads to Crazy Knife Fight Between Coworkers:

 

[JowGaWolf]

I believe Kennedy's demo is misleading. One should understand the safe zone, fight zone and enter when it's safe, not rely only on wrestling techniques. Do MMA!

GN (Paulo from Funker-Tactical) in your Kennedy video (from my past notes)...

At 1:44 of the followings video, "What doesn't work is the bent arm disarms and the moves that require your opponent to mysteriously leave his arm extended while you fumble your way through some preposterous disarm or the massive over committal defenses that will leave you dead if they don’t work for any reason. Moves that don’t work. …

$10,000 Challenge to Funker-Tactical. If you can catch any one of my 300 knife attacks in a row (at normal intensity) in a Russian tie, I will give you $10,000."

In this video, I respond very directly to Funker Tactical's straw-man argument, and issue a friendly challenge of my own. Will he respond? Not sure... you should ask him.

However, Paulo from Funker-Tactical can't catch any knife attacks in a "Russian tie." Paulo has not accepted the challenge, yet:

A real knife fight where the attacker moves, doesn't stand still.

Active Self Protection
Sep 23, 2021

Family Beef Leads to Crazy Knife Fight Between Coworkers:

It's possible to catch the stabbing hand. But you have to make your attacker stab you in a certain way and you have to move. The stabbing hand also must not be allowed to have a linear return to chamber which means that you have to apply circular motion to a linear attack.

Those conditions must exist. The problem with those 2 is that their stabbing technique seems to be informed of this.

 

[isshinryuronin]

To make it worst, sparring outside the system was the exception and not the norm

This is ironic because original karate was not designed to fight others of similar training. This only started in the 1930's as the sport developed and same/similar system competition became the norm and, more importantly, the standard of judging its effectiveness.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

sparring outside the system was the exception and not the norm.

When I formed my fighting club, I had:

- MT professional fighter.
- TKD BB.
- Hapkido BB.
- Uechi Ryu BB.
- CMA long fist guy.

When my TKD friend showed how to kick a concrete wall with a side kick, I admitted that his side kick training was better than mine.

I love the TKD kick training that my TKD friend showed me.

- right leg front kick (N), side kick (E), back kick (S) without dropping the foot.
- left leg front kick (N), side kick (W), back kick (S) without dropping the foot.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When I formed my fighting club, I had:

- MT professional fighter.
- TKD BB.
- Hapkido BB.
- Uechi Ryu BB.
- CMA long fist guy.

When my TKD friend showed how to kick a concrete wall with a side kick, I admitted that his side kick training was better than mine.

The one thing that I like about our recent meetup was that there were different perspectives on how to do similar things. There is one stepping technique that makes me want to see how many applications and uses there are for that simple step.

The same side kick done slightly differently can yield noticeable results.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The one thing that I like about our recent meetup was that there were different perspectives on how to do similar things. There is one stepping technique that makes me want to see how many applications and uses there are for that simple step.

The same side kick done slightly differently can yield noticeable results.

One thing that I always like to discuss with Taiji PH guys or WC sticky hand guys is:

What will a Taiji guy (or WC guy) do if his opponent just grabs on both of his wrists.

Taiji guys always said they don't like to grab. But they can't prevent their opponent to do so. So, if they don't train grabbing then how can they learn how to deal with a grip?

 

[gyoja]

One thing that I always like to discuss with Taiji PH guys or WC sticky hand guys is:

What will a Taiji guy (or WC guy) do if his opponent just grabs on both of his wrists.

Taiji guys always said they don't like to grab. But they can't prevent their opponent to do so. So, if they don't train grabbing then how can they learn how to deal with a grip?

Is that philosophy universal with all Taiji or WC practitioners?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Is that philosophy universal with all Taiji or WC practitioners?

The little bit of WC I've experienced included both grabs and methods for clearing grabs from the opponent. It wasn't a primary focus, but it was there.

 

[gyoja]

The little bit of WC I've experienced included both grabs and methods for clearing grabs from the opponent. It wasn't a primary focus, but it was there.

I appreciate the response. Unfortunately, I don’t have any CMA local to me to ask or work out with.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is that philosophy universal with all Taiji or WC practitioners?

Not too sure about WC guys, but Taiji guys don't like to grab because if a student grabs on his Taiji teacher, his Taiji teacher won't be able to push him away.

The wrist grabbing can destroy the "push" principle completely. A pushes B. Since A and B are connected, B will pull A with him.

This is a good example that when 2 different MA systems meet, interested thing can happen.

 

[gyoja]

Not too sure about WC guys, but Taiji guys don't like to grab because if a student grabs on his Taiji teacher, his Taiji teacher won't be able to push him away.

The wrist grabbing can destroy the "push" principle completely. A pushes B. Since A and B are connected, B will pull A with him.

This is a good example that when 2 different MA systems meet, interested thing can happen.

I would really like to experience this.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would really like to experience this.

I call this "octopus" strategy. You force your opponent to respond. You then deal with his respond.

The advantage of this strategy is since your opponent's respond is limited, it's much easier for you to predict your next move. When your opponent tries to break your grips, you already do your next move. You are always 1 step ahead of your opponent.

 

[gyoja]

I call this "octopus" strategy. You force your opponent to respond. You then deal with his respond.

Ok, that makes sense. We do something similar by attacking/deflecting the lead arm to cause a specific response. Thank you!

 

[Steve]

To clarify this for those who weren't at the meetup:

During the first day of our recent meetup at my gym, some of our BJJ guys were having an in-house tournament for white and blue belts. The ruleset was submission only, but if no one got a submission during regulation time then the match would go to a "sudden death" overtime. For the overtime, the competitors started on opposite sides of a MMA cage with a shock knife on the floor in the middle of the cage. Victory went to whoever got to the knife and zapped their opponent with it first.

I guess I can ask the tournament winner* (who never got stabbed) how he thought his training helped him in those overtime rounds.

Since the tournament was also an aspect of training, I can ask the other competitors if they think the experience of going through those rounds was helpful for building experience in dealing with a knife.

*BTW, I had the pleasure of promoting the winner to blue belt the Monday after the tournament. He's only been training for about 8 months, but has a great attitude and work ethic, coupled with a strong wrestling background.

This sounds cool, but I’m confused how it suggests anything at all about whether MMA is effective or not. They were all similarly trained and at similar skill/experience levels. And Someone was going to get shocked in each match. Goes to show some folks see what they expect, whether it’s there or not. Thank you for adding some important context.

 

[Steve]

You can only go off the evidence you have. Not the evidence you don't have.

We don't see flying kicks in the UFC. but we do see them in street fights. So an argument can be made that they are situational. We see guns work outside the UFC.

We don't see bananas work outside the UFC and it is very hard to make a case for their effectiveness.

If whatever you are defending falls in to the banana category. Then I would advise you don't rely on it.

A banana peel in the right hands is very effective. Seen it with my own eyes.

 

[HighKick]

Most of the time, yes. But not always. My first full time instructor was such a bad person and a complete fraud the students took over. We had to. He didn’t even mind, we let him have all the money and the student enrollment rapidly increased. He was thrilled. So were we.

Eerily similar to my first instructor, however he was a good teacher and motivator, but it turned out a bad, bad person. Me (a red belt at the time) and and a black belt ended up taking over the school Way back in 1984.
Good times.

 

[HighKick]

You can only go off the evidence you have. Not the evidence you don't have.

We don't see flying kicks in the UFC. but we do see them in street fights. So an argument can be made that they are situational. We see guns work outside the UFC.

We don't see bananas work outside the UFC and it is very hard to make a case for their effectiveness.

If whatever you are defending falls in to the banana category. Then I would advise you don't rely on it.

Bananas do have their purpose though. Great for potassium and magnesium and some would argue intimate situations. I am Not one of those people.

 

[gyoja]

Bananas do have their purpose though. Great for potassium and magnesium and some would argue intimate situations. I am Not one of those people.

Wow! That’s bananas!