What is Self Defense? (Kenpo-Jiu Jitsu)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Karazenpo
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hey prof joe

the problem with any picture sequence used for demonstrating something as dynamic as martial arts is that each picture is only a moment in time. everyone talks about stance stance stance.......there are no stances in motion......and this always ends up being a problem when someone is looking for absolutes, and i believe this is where the problem of people doing kata that looks like a slideshow comes from. mitose stated that kempo is more like boxing....and if you look at what he does in some shots.....his posture is very boxer like.
lets see how i get blasted for this.
 
Gary:

If you expect to be in town, we should meet. I'm all for meeting any one, anytime, to discuss any topic. I believe the truth has the ability to stand or fall on it's own. Having a vested interest only in the exploration of ideas and facts, I am personally quite capable of tossing the deck in the air, and letting the cards land where they will.

Couple things...concise communication. Generally, being cryptic, vague, or non-specific does not help assist with the flow of conversation or the exchange of ideas. It's fine if you're a general or fighter, and not a PhD, but I assure you -- even field corporals know how to radio in an idea clearly...otherwise they are apt to fall prey to their own ordnance.

Elvis taller than Parker? Have you ever met either? Parker was a bear of a man, fully a head taller than the average bear. There was no need to mess with or select photos. Get yer fact checkers out...preferably, prior to bringing half-baked ideas to a public forum, populated by people who trained with Parker, and remember his size. Yes, I did some training with him. Podagra, and all. I can't help but wonder if you ever met him, based on the inference of your statement. In fact, kenpo was billed in some circles for years as "big mans karate", tailored for the American large frame, as opposed to the small Asian frames with shorter comparative limbs. Still think Parker was a tiny Hawaiian? I hope I'm misunderstanding your implication...if so, it sort of speaks, again, to clarity of communication.

As for the voices of people who had been there...One of my kenpo instructors, on and off over a few years, was the late Bob Perry. He ran the Garden Grove Parker school for awhile, then split to do his own thing (still in the Garden Grove school). I asked him about Mitose, and he related being there during a visit, in which the upper belts sparred a bit with Mitose. His words were, basically, "The guy could come forward like a train, and you knew you didn't want to be in the way. But his movements were all very basic and one dimensional. We could side-step and pop him about ten times for every one time he caught us, but when that one hit came it had the potential for landing pretty hard." Mr. Perry continued to relate the commonly heard story of turning to Mr. Parker with a "I though you said this guy was a master?" look, and Parker just shrugging his shoulders. Nothing seen in Mitose that night compared to the level of sophisticated basics Parker was exploring in his kenpo.

Saint Parker? Naw. I don't go there or buy that. My big nag on the kosho group is the nescessity to belong to ancient lineages. I'm perfectly happy learning the innovative brainchild of guys I've met, without it belonging to some ancient guild of karate or kung-fu gods.

Think.

Dave
 
LOL, the funniest thing when reading all of this is the fact that no matter WHAT Mitose was...a master martial artist, a liar, a fraud, a murderer, one who could not fight his way out of a wet paper bag...he has still made his place in history...we CANNOT have serious discussions about kempo w/out someone bringing him up!!! I wonder how many of our names will be brought up in circles around the globe when someone speaks of great martial artist...(this excludes some of our own opinions) lol! I wonder...I wonder, of all the police officers, teachers, instructors, authors or just plain ole nobodys (like me) on the board, I wonder if our names will ever be mentioned again after we are gone...I wonder if anyone will put as much time and energy into proving us right or wrong as we have Mitose? Thing is...ALL of us have done our part to imortalize GGM Mitose...from those of us who devote our lives to discrediting him, to those of us who try to see that maybe, just maybe, he was who he claimed to be!
What we have to stop and realize is, Mitose was a master...even if it was a master of nothing more than fraud...he did it better than we do our professions...From a con artist point of veiw, wow...the ultimate con job...still going years after death....lol!
 
TChase said:
I'm pretty sure Mr. Pick was there when Mitose visited Ed Parkers school. I'll ask him what he thought about Mitose when I see him in about a month or so.
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I think he was also there when Bruce Lee was thrashing the tree out in back of the South Pasadena school ... but that is another story for another thread.

-Michael
 
My, My, My

It's been a while since I've read and really posted on any Mitose topics. It's nice to know the more things change the more they stay the same.

kelly
 
Benjp said:
In defense of the pictures...

The way that I'm taught Kosho Ryu self defense is to escape with both the attacker and defender unharmed.

We're taught onna (female, percussion) striking and otoko (male) atemi waza (striking tricks).

The percussion striking is faster, and provides (if done properly) for a quick and safe escape. It's similar to faking, but provides instant tactile feedback and reaction.

The otoko striking (characterized by sound body alignment, power, and vital striking locations) is highly discouraged and shouldn't really even be used.

When the pictures are thought of as techniques, or as a means to an end (typical of non-Kosho kenpo) then they look ridiculous. To me, however, they look like the type of things my instructor might do.. Yes, the pictures are described in the text as techniques. But this was to be one of multiple volumes.

Ben

Disclaimer: I am a student of Juchnik Hanshi's system of Kosho-ryu Kempo. I try to keep an open mind about the history and other Kenpo systems, and I've learned a tremendous amount from this board. No disrespect intended..
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I understand the difference in the striking types you describe, but neither should deform your posture,e.g. put you in a bad position, and as the descriptions of the techniques indicate, these strikes were to end the encounter, not provoke a reactionary movement. If he was using the strike in that manner, he was using the wrong tool at the wrong time.

Matt
 
GAB said:
Hi Kai,


Static sucks OK... Talk all you want about it, it still sucks...Hanshi Bruce wrote quite a few books, how many have read any of them??? I have 50 books by different authors and still I buy more and DVD's and I still think Hanshi knows what he is talking about, the book you are bad mouthing is 55+ years...Old...There is good and bad keep it in the right perspective...
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True, but the book that tipped me off to the issues at hand is 75+ years old. Are you saying that Mitose's book isn't old enough to be good? :rolleyes:

It's true as well that static images can't truly convey everything aout Mitose's movement skills, but still images can tell you where someone's weight is at that instant, whether his hips and shoulders agree, whether he's making the most of his anatomical structures at a given moment. Take a large batch of pictures, like a book's worth, and that's a lot of snapshots. A large sample size, even if the photographer was shooting at random, tends to give an accurate representation of the quality of the movement. As I see it, Bruce is better than his teacher.

Matt
 
To rise Seven, Fall eight" Does'nt really have a alot of documentation much earlier than the 50's.

Mitose's alinements are awfull, ono ne temma or not he is literally swatting behind his back for the down block. With the back foot rotated out as he has he would have trouble touching the opponent with his back hand, never mind the thouht of actually striking. Since onna ne temma is based off of quick hits, dont you need to protect your center? Apparently not. Mitose is expanding/contracting (chest and shoulders)type of punchs-which would be male striking.
Bruce Juchnik is a much, much better than this!
 
BlackCatBonz said:
hey prof joe

the problem with any picture sequence used for demonstrating something as dynamic as martial arts is that each picture is only a moment in time. everyone talks about stance stance stance.......there are no stances in motion......and this always ends up being a problem when someone is looking for absolutes, and i believe this is where the problem of people doing kata that looks like a slideshow comes from. mitose stated that kempo is more like boxing....and if you look at what he does in some shots.....his posture is very boxer like.
lets see how i get blasted for this.
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Actually there is stance work in boxing, how you use your hips and rear heel is critical for the right croos, left hook and any uppercut. The transitions (stances in motion) are smaller, you don't get to stpe thru to learn/use your power. It is not so much an absolute, but the basis or foundation of your power. If we assume that boxers don't hit with correct mechanics (which is wrong) relying instead on a flow of techniques, the awkward twisting of the shoulders and punching so far out of alinement would preclude ever hurting anybody
 
Actually when I saw Ed Parker back in the 80's he was shorter than my teacher (who was actually hugh), but some where around my size (6 foot)
 
To All: Please go to the San Jose Kenpo Discussion Forum (Dr. Ted Sumner). You can't copy and paste there or else I would have so you'll have to go check this out. There is a post by Bill Hensel titled 'Another Tic on the T Shirt of Kenpo'. It tells how and to a lesser degree what Mitose taught. Pretty interesting because I never heard or read this before. Please check it out and post your comments. "Joe"
 
Karazenpo said:
To All: Please go to the San Jose Kenpo Discussion Forum (Dr. Ted Sumner). You can't copy and paste there or else I would have so you'll have to go check this out. There is a post by Bill Hensel titled 'Another Tic on the T Shirt of Kenpo'. It tells how and to a lesser degree what Mitose taught. Pretty interesting because I never heard or read this before. Please check it out and post your comments. "Joe"
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There you go...
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[font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet] [/font][font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet][url="http://www.network54.com/Forum/326583"]Return to Forum [/font][font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet]Another Tic On The T Shirt Of Kenpo[/font]
[font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet]February 22 2005 at 11:19 AM[/font][font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet] Bill Hensel Bill Hensel (no login)
from IP address 64.48.192.176[/font][font=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet]I generate this post because Mr. Sumner asked me to. Having re-read the interview of the late Thomas Young, titled "An Evening With A Gentleman" written by John and Sherie Funk and published in "The Kosho-Shorei Newsletter" Volume 6, Number 1, 1986, I have come up with another question for the forum to contemplate. However, may I , in a readers digest fashion fashion speak to Thomas Youngs memory of how Mitose actually taught kenpo to his students as per the interview I have just made reference to. This will construct the ground work that supports my question or questions later on in this post.

Thomas Young addresses the style of teaching that Mitose used when teaching kenpo in Hawaii as one of "modeling". Mitose would himself peform a sequence of movements and the student body would observe with no comment. Then they would attempt to replicate the very movements that Mitose had just performed for them. Students didnot ask questions at all. In fact if the students didnot like Mitoses methods they were allowed to leave and study else where. Young states he never asked Mitose a single question while he was a student. Repetition and mastery were important. Young mentions that only a minimum number of techniques were actually taught to his students. Mitose taught few katas but did teach Nihanchi.

Mitose assesed his students with a critical eye and if a student demonstrated a philosophical bent, then Mitose would meet PRIVATELY with this student and transmitt some very important Philosophical concept or idea to the student. Mitose considered humbleness, courtesy, trust, awareness, s strong desire to learn and a flexible mind as the cornerstones of his method of evaluating a student under his tuteledge.

From this information that I have gleamed in this interview, I am now tempted to ask the following question.

Where did the vast quanity of Self Defense Techniques that we teach in the Tracy System actually come from? William Chow was not certified as Shodan directly by James Mitose. The fact is, Thomas Young certified Chow himself to the rank of Shodan. My point is this if Mitose didnot totally respect Chow from a philosphical view point, would Mitose actually transmit a vast quanity of techniques to Chow?. Historically Mitose didnot teach students lacking in philosophical understanding to learn the art of kicking. Mitsoe didnot teach very many years while in Hawaii thus limiting his ability to transfer a large quanity of techniques to his students. Afterall, remember that Young said Mitose taught at a very slow rate and exspected mastery. Did Young have under his belt hunderds of Self Defense techniques. Perhaps not, and if that is so where did Chow learn all those techniques that he taught to Ed Parker who then taught to Al Tracy. Young was given Mitoses school when Mitose left Hawaii and I believe this speaks volumes of Youngs Senior position relative to Chow.

Any perspectives are ofcourse welcome.

Regards,
Bill Hensel - Pine Colorado

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Thank you, koga ha, but how did you do that? When I attempt to copy and paste from my computer on San Jose Kenpo it won't take it. "Joe"

PS: I also must admit my computer skills aren't the greatest for I just evolved from the 'hammer & chisel' era, lol.
 
koga ha said:
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Thomas Young addresses the style of teaching that Mitose used when teaching kenpo in Hawaii as one of "modeling". Mitose would himself peform a sequence of movements and the student body would observe with no comment. Then they would attempt to replicate the very movements that Mitose had just performed for them. Students didnot ask questions at all. In fact if the students didnot like Mitoses methods they were allowed to leave and study else where. Young states he never asked Mitose a single question while he was a student. Repetition and mastery were important. Young mentions that only a minimum number of techniques were actually taught to his students. Mitose taught few katas but did teach Nihanchi.
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Sounds like video training :) Watch and imitate with no questions. How do we know whether he taught only a few techniques because his students weren't ready for more? Could it be because that's all he knew and once that was figured out by various students such as Chow, they left him?

Here's another thought on Mitose's fighting ability: GM Kuoha stated that you had better know how to fight if you were teaching martial arts in Hawaii back in the day. But, did he take into consideration the fact that Mitose was known for not fighting his own battles? He had people fight and do his evil bidding later in life, so why wouldn't he have set up a situation like that in Hawaii also? The threatened to bring a sword to deal with Sijo Emperado after all. Doesn't sound like someone used to settling things mano a mano to me.
 
Danjo said:
Sounds like video training :) Watch and imitate with no questions. How do we know whether he taught only a few techniques because his students weren't ready for more? Could it be because that's all he knew and once that was figured out by various students such as Chow, they left him?

Here's another thought on Mitose's fighting ability: GM Kuoha stated that you had better know how to fight if you were teaching martial arts in Hawaii back in the day. But, did he take into consideration the fact that Mitose was known for not fighting his own battles? He had people fight and do his evil bidding later in life, so why wouldn't he have set up a situation like that in Hawaii also? The threatened to bring a sword to deal with Sijo Emperado after all. Doesn't sound like someone used to settling things mano a mano to me.
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man, danjo, your cup must be half empty.
 
Again, to treat this in total fairness, Danjo has a point which seems to align with what John Bishop stated about these guys leaving Mitose because all he did was teach them basics over and over again. By the same token, in defense of Mitose, isn't that how the old kenpo or martial arts in general was taught back then? I read once that the old kenpo was a solid understanding of the basics with a limited number of techniques that when borrowed from the basics would create other techniques. Back to Danjo, it had been said that Mitose did use Chow as a strong arm back then and it has also been said the Chow was a doorman/bouncer in Mitose's house of ill repute (info from the Tracy website, I believe they got it from the court transcripts of his trial). This is not to start any flames, just laying everything out on the table, both pros and cons in an attempt to find the truth. There's no reason why we can't do this all civilly. If it gets into a flame war then the moderator will lock the thread and we end up back at square one, so let's respect everyone's input and keep this an open and friendly discussion. Thanks, with respect to all, "Joe"
 
you never here about mitose's fighting ability, and isn't it generally acknowledged that Chow was the brawn?


Mitoses's training methods sounds very "cultish". Obediance, no questions, loyality, honor
 
The Kai said:
you never here about mitose's fighting ability, and isn't it generally acknowledged that Chow was the brawn?


Mitoses's training methods sounds very "cultish". Obediance, no questions, loyality, honor
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Todd, again, to be fair to all parties, I think the teaching was pretty much like that back then. I'd rather not give names but one of the seniors out here on the east coast was relating a story that when performing a kata back in his early years he questioned his instructor on the effectiveness of using the upward (rising) 'chicken wrist' (crane's head strike) up under the chin, stating it would injure the wrist. He told us his instructor's response was to beat him up, I guess with 'chicken wrists', lol. He said he never mentioned it again. I know his instructor and to this day and he is a super nice guy and a helluva martial artsit with an excellent reputation but I honestly think that's how things were done. I bet many of the seniors here on this forum have heard or even witnessed many stories like that.
 
Hi Dave,

Yes, I would like to meet and talk as travelers, one going one way and another go his.

I guess big to me is different then to others One son is 6-4 + another 6-7 My brother 6-6 my brother in law 6-5 my self 6-2 my grandson 6-2+ he is 16. another brother in law 6-4+ Weight, well we won't go there. But me I am one of the smaller a petite 220...

Look at the Basket ball players the foot ball players big and small all doing a great job and taking some massive hits...

Ed Parker was a big man among small men in height..I am talking stature not what they have accomplished...

Choki Motobu was reported to be well over 6-0. Wrong 5-4....

What does it really matter, it matters because it is not the truth and that is the problem with people talking about their hero or the fish they caught...

It is not in the 1st principle of Tracy Kenpo 'Think Without any Dishonesty'...

Yea Kai, what crop, I just finished Infinite insight #2 read that and then tell me about the sect of Parker. LDS was called a cult also, is it.

Don't go there Kai, I will eat you up...

Regards, Gary
 
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