What is Self Defense? (Kenpo-Jiu Jitsu)

[Kosho-Monk]

Hey that's a great philosophy, I mean it!. I thought you wanted more to talk about the application of the art.

if you teach in a concise clear manner, it would allow a student to build on his basics quicker, laying a nice foundation. Since it seems to be agreed upon that practice of the basics is what allow the student to master, and individualize the material (according to Mitose). Now if this is teaching wrong -the alternative grope around for the right answers to questions you don't know to ask yet!

So you did'nt think an individual could learn so you promoted them to 1st or 2nd degree?

Sorry. I guess I got a bit off topic. (I understand that Mitose taught true self-defense - the art of defending one's self without body contact.)

I agree that one should be clear in their teaching methods. I am very clear about making my students work for the answers they seek. I have never liked to simply give them the answer without seeing them sweat first!

As to your question about promoting people I didn't think could learn, no, I would never do that. These are things that happened at schools I taught at. Not at the school I own. But more to the point I was trying to make is that these things happen. Teachers sometimes promote their students even when they don't feel it to be totally right. Perhaps hoping that they will catch up for the next test.

I agree that the basics are very important to learn. How to hold your fist, form the foot, etc. Extremely important. But Mitose, as I understand it, put more importance on knowing when to do something, than what to do.

Again, we don't want to assume this means that we would now ignore the basics, but rather understand that knowing how to punch someone in the face, for instance, is good, but useless if you don't know when to do it.

Just like blocking. If I know how to block a punch but do it at the wrong time, I get hit.

I guess I feel like there has to be a balance between what you "freely" give away to your student and what you make them "work for". Personally, as long as my students are showing that they are working hard to understand something, I make sure they are always pointed in the right direction. But I also remember that we can learn a lot from our mistakes.

Good conversation. Thanks.


-John

 

[The Kai]

Actually in the book, there is plenty of body contact!!Basics go way beyond how to make a fist!!
Knowing the when is asuming you wait for the opponet to move first. There Go Sen No Sen and Sen no sen. Blocking and defense is definatly the hardest aspect of the art to master, but that being said it is a mistake to always wait on your oppoenent

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Hi Todd,

I believe this was the first book of what was supposed to me many more. And yes, I agree that basics go beyond how to simply make a fist.

Knowing when to strike first is important too and still falls under the category of when to move. Personally, I think meditation is the hardest part of the art to master! But I know that not all practitioners do that.

I would say it is always a mistake to always do something a certain way. I also have to say that what is presented in Mitose's book is not the Kosho I learn today. Hanshi presents Kosho in a much different manner, as I am sure you would agree with, yes/no?

-John

 

[The Kai]

Of course the Kosho presented today is far different from what is detailed in the book! Of course the book outlined a method called kenpo Jujitsu, not kosho.

If there was more than one book planned is really conjecture there is nothing in the book to indicate it is the first of many volumes, nor is there mention of further techniques

Why do you do things a certain way?, efficency. When I walk out of house I could walk around the yard, then enter the garage-or I could walk straight to the garage. If there are no obsticles, or rewards for me to change my path why would I wander about?

 

[gmkuoha]

[[/QUOTE]
Thank you very much, Grandmaster Kuoha, I truly appreciate you taking the time to contribute to the discussion. It's great to have your input here. Will more be released on Professor Chow's father? Like the pictures mentioned, his training? The Tracy's website disputes the Buddhist priest issue because he was married. Do you know if Hoon Chow was really arrested for a barroom fight as is claimed in the Tracy site? I 'respectfully' ask these questions for some type of resolution because this is what is given to us as the other side of the argument when we discuss these issues. Thank you. "Joe"[/QUOTE] * No I will not have any photos printed as many of these copies have appeared on other websites and other informative printed materials claiming to be theirs, so I am only keeping them for our use and the use of our students. It is great to see others reject and contend that this is true or this is not true when they were never around, but if you view our history from the time it all started in the public eye after the death of Professor Chow in 1987, till now, the stories have never changed unlike others who followed one person at one time, then another at a different time. I guess it all depends on who's got the popularity at that time. Chow Hoon (Professor Chow) was indeed a martial artists as I have seen photos of him and even printed one of them in our book, but as a Buddhists priest, it has been told to me by Professor Chow and also others only. If people would read our history, "it states that Chow Hoon was a Buddhists Priest...WAS is the word here as yes he did come to Hawaii and got married and I was told when he did that he left the monastery. Yes, I believe that he was arrested for a fight and despite a barroom brawl...that was highly unlikely as there are no records of this. I was told by Professor that it was actually with 2 men that he got into a fight and because both were pretty beaten up, he was arrested, but nothing happened. You have to remember, and if you didn't live in Hawaii at the time we were a territory you wouldn't know, but if you got into a fight, everyone was arrested till things were sorted out and since he never got any time out of that, I presume that he was arrested because he was just a party in the altercation...but I am not sure as all records are gone. I thought that records would have been in a micro fish format now, but they did not have anything like that in those days, so they kept records for so many years then had them destroyed. My family are all in law enforcement officers there in Hawaii and no one found any records about him at all.
Grandmaster Kuoha

 

[Karazenpo]

Thank you Sir for clarifying that. We too, as police officers do the same thing in Massachusetts to this day. If there is a brawl in progress when we arrive, everybody goes, everyone is arrested, we then take statements, write a report and let the judge sort out the rest! I appreciate you clarifying what has been reported on other websites for that has been a 'sticking point' in some of our discussions here. Now, we have the other side of the story.
Sincerely, Prof. Joe

 

[Danjo]

No I will not have any photos printed as many of these copies have appeared on other websites and other informative printed materials claiming to be theirs, so I am only keeping them for our use and the use of our students. Grandmaster Kuoha

Have you considered copy protecting them like they do on the Hawaii Karate Seinenkai webpage? There are ways to prevent others from even cutting and pasting them now. It would be great to be able to see these someday.

 

[Danjo]

I really do hope that you publish a book on Professor Chow though. Regardless

 

[GAB]

"to be revealed" - "previously unknown" - "new documentation" - "finally the truth" - "new information" - "you must come" - "finally all will see" - "forthcoming" "but wait, there's more"

(depicted results not typical, batteries not included, some assembly necessary, may cause heart attack, high blood pressure, or stroke, delivery takes 6 to 8 weeks, plus tax shipping and handling, second one must be of equal or lesser value, when used with a sensible diet, not responsible for misuse, limited warranty, return only with receipt, no cash refunds, store credit only)

Now where have I heard these things before? Anyone recall some of this language on MartialTalk previously. What were we talking about on previous threads.

My point is a simple one. These things seem to be literally driven by, (particularly in this case) people outside of kenpo attempting to "sale credibility." Ocassionally they sale a meeting or gathering as well using the "new information" as bait. Somehow nothing "new" ever comes out of these things. Perhaps a separate forum for "Tracy Kenpo?" or a "Mitose" "Bruce" section or something so people can argue the merits among themselves instead of trying to convince others who don't care. If these guys who are doing their own thing are so good, they would not have to work so hard to convince us. What is not in dispute is Chow, Emperado, and Parker are/were physically awesome.

I find it funny that the "fame" of some is traced "backwards" from Chow, Emperado and Parker instead of forward from the "famous" to their students.

No matter what we talk about, some still steer back to the same old unresolveable garbage.

Hi DOC,

With all due respect Doc you should have run a check on me...
I am not trying to convince you of anything I am looking for answers, and what I see on most of these threads are a lot of theory and no truth...

So I started to get involved, Now 7 months later after a lot of mud slinging and arguing I am talking more specific with Hanshi Bruce Juchnik and trying to get some stuff cleared up...

He has put on a gathering for the last 17 Years Doc, International type OK...He will put on another this year at Reno..Edward Bobby Lowe and Paul Yamaguchi (spl) will be there... They were there IN Hawaii, then and hopefully if all goes well they will be there in Reno.

I was telling him about the Attack on Thomas Young...He said Paul Yamaguchi would tell you different he Knew Thomas Young very well...

So whether you like it or not, matters not to me either... So much stuff is just not true and told again and again...Just like the...they never learned by touching or only conversation was happening...WRONG...According to Hanshi...

You like to trash talk, I am trying to find answer's you want to attack someones mental level or degrade them, fine, you just never ran up against someone like me Doc...Your tricks are not so tricky OK...

I have been trying to tell you, but you don't want to listen you want to trash talk me...To Bad...

Since I have been on this board you were 10th Dan of your organization then you go for Professor now you are whatever...

Hanshi has been Hanshi since he was given the keys to Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo...He has about 10 or more Master titles in various arts so a big deal??? Not to him he said to me, Gary, I am just a student...Well, me also Doc...

So are going to go to Reno to talk to the people who were there??? Or just talk trash???

Regards, Gary

 

[MJS]

Lets try to refrain from making personal attacks on each other and stay focused on the topic!!!

Mike

 

[GAB]

Let me throw out this as a thought. Let's change the wording of "taught wrong on purpose" to "taught a certain way on purpose". And let's suppose this difference was in how much meaning they gave to their students. And what I mean by that is...

let's say I teach a student a certain move. But instead of simply giving him all the knowledge that I have about this move, I make him figure out much of it on his own. This would mean that a serious student would go off and work with what I taught him and the not-so-serious student would simply accept my basic explanation of what I taught as the whole truth.

So in fact, I did teach "wrong" on purpose.

I, as the teacher, would see that one student was working hard and continue to point them in the right direction. The other student (if I didn't kick them out of my school) I would continue on the same path he chose; the path of ignorance. And in the end he'd probably quit thinking I wasn't very good - when in fact it was his lack of desire that failed him.

Just a thought. I do this with my own students. The difference is I am very open about what I am doing. I tell them that there is more to what I teach and it's their duty as a good student to figure it out.


-John

Hi John,

I am glad you brought this up, because in FMA we play "defang the snake"..

You go for the hand that holds the stick...The stick is to represent the "Bolo or a Kris"... We are taught at the beginners level to go for the hand and in the drills we do... we strike as close to the hand with out hitting, some may even want to start with the soft stick...Guro Carlito likes rattan. LOL ouch

The instructor "if he is good" tells you this is what you are learning at this time, after you are able to do these drills, we will show you at a higher level...

Now the higher levels or much more dangerous, especially if you are moving very quickly, they say OK this is the purpose for this strike...Instead of the #2 going for the hand it now goes to the face and neck same move only much more lethel.

When you start you don't have control of that stick or weapon, as you get better and more efficient now you are given more keys...

Take an apprentice who goes onto the Job as a Carpenter..A little different application here, but he is not given the skill saw and told to go cut those rafter tails. He is told to hold that for me or go get some more studs and lay them out on the marks that are on the plates and then make sure you don't have to go back to often, carry as many as you can...

Anyway that is how I relate it...

One last thought, in books relating to the Samurai sword they show dead bodies (drawings) how to cut them up, it shows the beginners the skill they have...We don't do that we use targets or bags or bricks or wood or soft rice bundles...

In EPAK it is empty hands, In "Kali or Escrima or Arnis" it is the stick or the hand...When you get better you use real knives and swords..Scary Huh????

Regards, Gary

 

[gmkuoha]

I really do hope that you publish a book on Professor Chow though. Regardless

* Thanks for the interests and yes, I believe that I will do just that. I have so many projects that I don't know which ones to tackle first. Trying to copyright gets very expensive as many of our systems names, titles of techniques and katas among other things were copyrighted and my attorney said there are so many loopholes in copyright laws that it is almost imposible to keep things like that sacred. In one case a person was sued for using a portion of a film into his own film but it was thrown out of court because a mention of the original film was done in the new film even if no permission was granted. I still don't know how that went the other way, but it's case law now and to me it's not correct. Good example are about famous paintings done by famous artists and these same painting are done today by not so famous artists for pennies on that dollar and nothing can be done.
Grandmaster Kuoha

 

[Danjo]

* Thanks for the interests and yes, I believe that I will do just that. I have so many projects that I don't know which ones to tackle first. Trying to copyright gets very expensive as many of our systems names, titles of techniques and katas among other things were copyrighted and my attorney said there are so many loopholes in copyright laws that it is almost imposible to keep things like that sacred. In one case a person was sued for using a portion of a film into his own film but it was thrown out of court because a mention of the original film was done in the new film even if no permission was granted. I still don't know how that went the other way, but it's case law now and to me it's not correct. Good example are about famous paintings done by famous artists and these same painting are done today by not so famous artists for pennies on that dollar and nothing can be done.
Grandmaster Kuoha

Yes copywrite can be tricky. However, what I was referring to was a type of website technology that prevents people from copying or cutting and pasting your images. There are a few different ways of doing this. One is to have a translucent sign across your photos that say the name of your website on them. That way, no matter who copies them, they can't use them without everyone knowing exactly where they came from. Nick Cerio's site does this.( http://www.nickcerioskenpo.com/prof_cerio/gallerypages/gallery.htm ) Another way is like they do on the website I mentioned above. ( http://seinenkai.com ) There you are not even able to copy them at all, not even for your own personal collection. Either way, I'm certain that there are several computer tech guys here that could assist you in finding the best type of technology. This way, you can both share the material and know that it is protected at the same times. There would be no relying on copywrite laws etc.

 

[GAB]

Yes copywrite can be tricky. However, what I was referring to was a type of website technology that prevents people from copying or cutting and pasting your images. There are a few different ways of doing this. One is to have a translucent sign across your photos that say the name of your website on them. That way, no matter who copies them, they can't use them without everyone knowing exactly where they came from. Nick Cerio's site does this.( http://www.nickcerioskenpo.com/prof_cerio/gallerypages/gallery.htm ) Another way is like they do on the website I mentioned above. ( http://seinenkai.com ) There you are not even able to copy them at all, not even for your own personal collection. Either way, I'm certain that there are several computer tech guys here that could assist you in finding the best type of technology. This way, you can both share the material and know that it is protected at the same times. There would be no relying on copywrite laws etc.

Danjo,

That is good information, one of the reasons I am loyal to Hanshi is all the information and paperwork he has that has convinced me he is for real.

Others are unaware of what went on and just picking things apart because they don't have the information I do...Believe me when I say I am not at liberty to give out some stuff...I think he is testing my patience or his one or the other...

I will forward this information to Hanshi Bruce...

Regards, Gary

PS: Karazenpo can go to Kenpotalk.com and still play if he wants to...

 

[Danjo]

Believe me when I say I am not at liberty to give out some stuff

Yes, that is a problem. We hear a lot of claims from people without any proof to back it up. If the proof exists, then for goodness sake get it out there so people can look at it and realize the truth of the situation. If the proof is not going to be divulged, then keep quite about the claims. Few things are more anoying than someone saying, "This is the truth. I have proof. But I will not show you the proof." Again, if you're not going to show someone the proof, then don't make the claim until you're willing to. It isn't just Juchnik either, he's just the one that has been making the claims related to this discussion about Mitose and what he actually taught.

Peace.

 

[GAB]

Yes, that is a problem. We hear a lot of claims from people without any proof to back it up. If the proof exists, then for goodness sake get it out there so people can look at it and realize the truth of the situation. If the proof is not going to be divulged, then keep quite about the claims. Few things are more anoying than someone saying, "This is the truth. I have proof. But I will not show you the proof." Again, if you're not going to show someone the proof, then don't make the claim until you're willing to. It isn't just Juchnik either, he's just the one that has been making the claims related to this discussion about Mitose and what he actually taught.

Peace.

Well Danjo,

I have been trying to give out some information, they attack the guard (he's dirty) they attack me, not the topic...They attack because they are insecure in there own world and don't want answers, when I do give them it is another attack...

I have given answers like I say to be changed quoted out of context and so forth...Kenpo talk will be a better forum I am sure for these debates...

Ted Sumner puts up documents they are attacked...

Tell you what, you got a question, lets hear it...Ok..

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

Unless the proof is in the book "What is Selfdefennse" it is off-topic. You could start a thread "proof I have"

Again no one attcked the guard, what they were talking about was the possibilty of events happening....

 

[GAB]

Unless the proof is in the book "What is Selfdefennse" it is off-topic. You could start a thread "proof I have"

Again no one attcked the guard, what they were talking about was the possibilty of events happening....

Hi Kai,

Yes you are correct on the topic thing, how I know about that.

So lets talk the basic book that James Mitose wrote.

For the time period it was a good book and no matter what you want to say in this time and age it is his first writing. If he published it himself it is even better...

Ed Parkers first book for comparison. Basic book same information only not as indepth..

Mitose's first book in museums and a collector Item selling for hundreds of dollars if you can even find it.

Ed Parkers book, still selling for under $ 20.00 still it is not considered a museum piece, it was written in 1960...less then a decade after Mitose's book...It had no original information...

As for the attack on the guard I will let George Santana figure that one out I am going to forward the information to him....It is on the web for all to see...

Regrds, Gary

 

[Michael Billings]

If the proof is not going to be divulged, then keep quite about the claims. Few things are more anoying than someone saying, "This is the truth. I have proof. But I will not show you the proof."

Peace.

This is one of my pet personal (drive me nuts) peeves. The problem is we see it all the time and there is no empirical way of separating the wheat from the chaff.

-Michael

 

[GAB]

This is one of my pet personal (drive me nuts) peeves. The problem is we see it all the time and there is no empirical way of separating the wheat from the chaff.

-Michael

Hi Michael,

I am working on it and if I can push, prod, and whatever I can do to get that information out I will do it...The whole thing is so convoluted, reminds me of the DNA Helix...

I have only begun to get this out.

Just in the last week I have tried to get DR Ted Sumner and Hanshi together...
With this Seminar coming out and Ray Arquilla releasing some of his information it will get better...Hopefully...

Yea kind of funny, Dr. Ted and I still e-mail almost daily...Go Figure...

Regards, Gary