What is Self Defense? (Kenpo-Jiu Jitsu)

[The Kai]

Wasn't it said somewhere that the old masters taught wrong on purpose?

kell

This would'nt make any sense, in okinwan they were literally teaching thier arts to survive. You teach wrong=your students don't survive=Style does'nt exist any more. After that, well you you send your students on to the streets or into a competetion with all the wrong moves

There is also the assumption that you are being taught the true way, while the "others" are not!
Here's a Logic equation
All Men die
Bob is a Man
------------
Bob will die

Applied thusly
The Old Teachers taught wrong
My teacher is of the old way
--------------------
I am being taught wrong

 

[Ray]

No one is arguing about who taught Angelo Dundee, Freddie Roach, Holyfield, Jack Johnson, how to fight - or how to train fighters. What is this fixation we martial artists have with wanting some mantle of authority on our shoulders, or on the shoulders of those who taught (teach) us?

Other than for setting the historical record straight, I don't see a lot of use for this conversation. Although, I enjoy martial arts history, what good is it?

 

[Karazenpo]

No one is arguing about who taught Angelo Dundee, Freddie Roach, Holyfield, Jack Johnson, how to fight - or how to train fighters. What is this fixation we martial artists have with wanting some mantle of authority on our shoulders, or on the shoulders of those who taught (teach) us?

Other than for setting the historical record straight, I don't see a lot of use for this conversation. Although, I enjoy martial arts history, what good is it?

Well Ray, one of my Karazenpo instructors here in New England Gm. S. George Pesare has a saying that goes something like: "How do we know where we're going to if we don't know where we came from?" There is a Taoist saying also that goes like this: 'Dwell on the past, you rob the present, ignore the past, you rob the future'. Thirdly, speaking for myself, I was a history major in college. I find history fascinating. Hey, to each his own. So those are my reasons. No, we shouldn't obsess about it but a healthy debate and an honest attempt to solve a mystery or two is a good distraction in today's stressful society. That's how I see it anyway. Respectfully, Joe

 

[GAB]

Am just curious...am sure someone can explain this to me though...but I OFTEN here that B. Juchnik could never have been taught actual techniques while visiting Mitose in prison as that was not allowed...all he could do was LISTEN as Mitose described the techniques...If that is the case, I have to agree, yes, it makes one wonder just how much could have really been taught...BUT...from what I understand, Hanshi met Mitose thru a friend who worked at the prison as a guard...Guru Santana!!! Now lets see...is it totally inconcievable that one could look the "other way" as various ummm, physical activities took place? I mean after all, some very high power crime bosses thru out history still ran their various families from prison...drugs are a big problem in the prison system as well, I am fairly sure thay are against the rules as well...so, to use that one rule as a basis to declare physical actions where NEVER taught is just plain ridiculous...are we really that niave?

Hi Mekosho,

I talked about this last night with Hanshi...

He said "we had greetings, touching, hugging showing respect, we would be in an area about 800 square feet, there were benchs and we sat and conversed and he would be able to show you what he ment by physcial movements"

When He was showing a particular move to David Kovar, who was about 20 at the time. It was at about half speed, when he avoided Dave's punch his next move was to the groin. Dave was hurt and he got the message. Dave Kovar is a person who received the information also...

Regard, Gary

 

[GAB]

LOL! You are absolutly right Mr. Bishop...Guru Santana...or was it just george the struggling guard back then? Is far to honorable a person to have ever bent the rules...see what I am saying..times change, people change...
Again, I just feel it is totally naive to stand on the "it was against the rules" line 100%...
I am sure you yourself are a very honorable person as well Mr. Bishop...but is it likely that you NEVER break a rule? Highly doubtful! Ever get a speeding ticket?
I mean, that prob. seems very minor to you, a speeding ticket...heck, we have all had em from time to time...prob. seems about as minor as guard who is in the martial arts looking the other way when fellow martial artist want to share a move or two!

Hi MeKosho,

Again I asked Hanshi about that...Against the rules IDEA!

He said, who ever is saying that was not there, and they don't know what they are talking about.
That is just not true. Who started that line of erroneous information?

He also said anyone taking about George being dishonest, well remember he is still a working person with corrections, so they had better be careful because that is not the truth, they were not there when we had these get togethers and neither was George.

Regards, Gary

 

[Doc]

"to be revealed" - "previously unknown" - "new documentation" - "finally the truth" - "new information" - "you must come" - "finally all will see" - "forthcoming" "but wait, there's more"

(depicted results not typical, batteries not included, some assembly necessary, may cause heart attack, high blood pressure, or stroke, delivery takes 6 to 8 weeks, plus tax shipping and handling, second one must be of equal or lesser value, when used with a sensible diet, not responsible for misuse, limited warranty, return only with receipt, no cash refunds, store credit only)

Now where have I heard these things before? Anyone recall some of this language on MartialTalk previously. What were we talking about on previous threads.

My point is a simple one. These things seem to be literally driven by, (particularly in this case) people outside of kenpo attempting to "sale credibility." Ocassionally they sale a meeting or gathering as well using the "new information" as bait. Somehow nothing "new" ever comes out of these things. Perhaps a separate forum for "Tracy Kenpo?" or a "Mitose" "Bruce" section or something so people can argue the merits among themselves instead of trying to convince others who don't care. If these guys who are doing their own thing are so good, they would not have to work so hard to convince us. What is not in dispute is Chow, Emperado, and Parker are/were physically awesome.

I find it funny that the "fame" of some is traced "backwards" from Chow, Emperado and Parker instead of forward from the "famous" to their students.

No matter what we talk about, some still steer back to the same old unresolveable garbage.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

here is another simple point......if one is so uninterested in a particular topic, why keep making posts about it?

 

[kelly keltner]

Wasn't it said somewhere that the old masters taught wrong on purpose?

kell

This would'nt make any sense, in okinwan they were literally teaching thier arts to survive. You teach wrong=your students don't survive=Style does'nt exist any more. After that, well you you send your students on to the streets or into a competetion with all the wrong moves

There is also the assumption that you are being taught the true way, while the "others" are not!
Here's a Logic equation
All Men die
Bob is a Man
------------
Bob will die

Applied thusly
The Old Teachers taught wrong
My teacher is of the old way
--------------------
I am being taught wrong

OK Todd Ole boy. Let's say You're an Okinawan/Japanese instructor in post WW2 Okinawa. OK and Okinawa/Japan is occupied by who?
THE AMERICANS
Ok so your land is full of foreigners with guns. They're gettin drunk, chasin the native girls, and getting into fights.
American servicemen then come to you and want to learn Martial arts.
You say "sure" take their two dollars teach'em something backwards and kick'em in the groin for looking at your daughter wrong.

kelly

P.s. the assumtion was never on my part. I just asked the question"didn't someone say it" you're the one making assumptions not me. My thought proccess was to come up with various scenarios under which that statement might hold up. I came up with one and typed it. The fact that I typed it does not make it true or assumed it's just an extension of my thought process in a scenario driven enviroment.

 

[Doc]

OK Todd Ole boy. Let's say You're an Okinawan/Japanese instructor in post WW2 Okinawa. OK and Okinawa/Japan is occupied by who?
THE AMERICANS
Ok so your land is full of foregners with guns. They're gettin drunk, chasin the native girls, and getting into fights.
American servicemen then come to you and want to learn Martial arts.
You say "sure" take their two dollars teach'em something backwards and kick'em in the groin for looking at your daughter wrong.

kelly

How true. What you teach your "real" students versus the American servicemen, (who were there short term anyway) would be different. How long are you going to be here sir? One year? Yes you can make black belt in that time. Money please. Joe Lewis, black belt - 6 months, Chuck Norris, black belt - 7 months as examples.

Much of that material came to the west in its abbreviated form and black belts were given here as well for less than a years effort. So what else is new?

 

[kelly keltner]

How true. What you teach your "real" students versus the American servicemen, (who were there short term anyway) would be different. How long are you going to be here sir? One year? Yes you can make black belt in that time. Money please. Joe Lewis, black belt - 6 months, Chuck Norris, black belt - 7 months as examples.

Much of that material came to the west in its abbreviated form and black belts were given here as well for less than a years effort. So what else is new?

Nothin's new, just making a point. Thanks for agreeing, mark it on your calander. It doesn't happen between us to often.

kelly

 

[Doc]

Nothin's new, just making a point. Thanks for agreeing, mark it on your calander. It doesn't happen between us to often.

kelly

Absent a specific hotbed topic, more than you think.

 

[The Kai]

How true. What you teach your "real" students versus the American servicemen, (who were there short term anyway) would be different. How long are you going to be here sir? One year? Yes you can make black belt in that time. Money please. Joe Lewis, black belt - 6 months, Chuck Norris, black belt - 7 months as examples.

Much of that material came to the west in its abbreviated form and black belts were given here as well for less than a years effort. So what else is new?

They were taught and promoted rather quickly and probably very simply. But wrong? Well, lets look at the fighting history of Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris. Lewis did'nt have a lot of tools in his toolbox, but he could hit with what he knew. Norris went on and rounded out his training (again with other artists that were taught wrong) and went on to have a strong fighting history. Now if you assume of course that they were taught not so much in an abbreviated manner, but wrong. If we have advanced our learning how is applied - theorically at best.

Again here's the falling down of logic. The old masters taught wrong, on purpose". If they taught wrong who would call them a master?? The students that are getting thier butts kicked. Other systems that are using the Old Masters school like a dishrag. So the old master has a bunch of students that can't hit, block, throw or kick-but we still think he is a master!!

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Let me throw out this as a thought. Let's change the wording of "taught wrong on purpose" to "taught a certain way on purpose". And let's suppose this difference was in how much meaning they gave to their students. And what I mean by that is...

let's say I teach a student a certain move. But instead of simply giving him all the knowledge that I have about this move, I make him figure out much of it on his own. This would mean that a serious student would go off and work with what I taught him and the not-so-serious student would simply accept my basic explanation of what I taught as the whole truth.

So in fact, I did teach "wrong" on purpose.

I, as the teacher, would see that one student was working hard and continue to point them in the right direction. The other student (if I didn't kick them out of my school) I would continue on the same path he chose; the path of ignorance. And in the end he'd probably quit thinking I wasn't very good - when in fact it was his lack of desire that failed him.

Just a thought. I do this with my own students. The difference is I am very open about what I am doing. I tell them that there is more to what I teach and it's their duty as a good student to figure it out.


-John

 

[Karazenpo]

Did they really teach wrong or was it a communications problem? The language barrier? I heard that too.

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Did they really teach wrong or was it a communications problem? The language barrier? I heard that too.

Good point. Remember in "The Last Samuri" the Japanese guy kept telling Tom Cruise, "too many minds". It took a while for him to figure out what that really meant.

-John

 

[The Kai]

communication problems can happen even in the same language.
Again until a short time ago Martial Art were taught in a small group, would'nt you notice that you were the only one doing like a thousand push ups while everyone else was learning to fight? Who were the first waves to be taught, Military MPS, and Military guys in general. And guess what they used the stuff! and it worked. In the oldpictures of service men sparring in Bogu Gear with thier okinwan counter parts they seemed to hold thier own. Or maybe every Okinwan stylist ever, even those relocated to the states held back so the Americans would'nt wise up!!

 

[gmkuoha]

. Coincidence you may say, maybe, some may even say there's a connection to all general self defense techniques in all martial arts but since Mitose was Chow's instructor and Chow was Emperado's/Parker's and Parker's was Tracy's then why is it not so hard to believe it's simply the evolution of what Mitose taught. Seems a logical conclusion whether someone likes the man or not. I don't believe Parker, Emperado, Chow just made up their stuff from scratch, I don't buy it no matter how talented they are simply because there common denominator was James Mitose as much as some wish to distance themselves from that it is nevertheless a fact! With respect, Prof. Joe[/QUOTE]
* Mr. Shuras, I believe there would be a similarity between even the farthest off-shoot from what Mitosi or Chow taught. Even when sitting many people around the room and whispering a statement to the first, the end will be different yet still have a word or two from the beginning statement. It should be known that Professor Chow received his training from his father, Chow Hoon, who was a proficiant kung fu stylists from China. Tough many belive that he was nothing more then a street fighter, I beg to differ as I have seen several photos of him in the real old days in some sort of kung fu outfit and doing some forms. Professor Chow said his father was a Buddhists Priest from the Shanghai, China Temples and I have no way to prove otherwise, but since he never lied to me on anything else I have to believe him on this.

I spoke to Sijo Emparado some time a go and asked him about both men as he was there training during the era of Mitosi and Chow and he told me that Chow learned as much from Mitosi as Mitosi learned from Chow. He said that when Chow trained with Mitosi he was already very proficient in the martial arts, but wanted some place to go and train to hone in his techniques and at that time Mitosi was the well knowned martial artists as he knew many government officials and various people.

Thanks for allowing me to share my opinion,
Grandmaster Kuoha

 

[Kosho-Monk]

communication problems can happen even in the same language.
Again until a short time ago Martial Art were taught in a small group, would'nt you notice that you were the only one doing like a thousand push ups while everyone else was learning to fight? Who were the first waves to be taught, Military MPS, and Military guys in general. And guess what they used the stuff! and it worked. In the oldpictures of service men sparring in Bogu Gear with thier okinwan counter parts they seemed to hold thier own. Or maybe every Okinwan stylist ever, even those relocated to the states held back so the Americans would'nt wise up!!

Hi Todd,

I've mainly taught at small schools, and even my own school now is very small in numbers. I can tell you that I've had students who kept coming to class and didn't learn much. Not because I wasn't teaching, but because they couldn't let any other ideas into their minds.

Some of these guys got up to as high a low level black belt in the schools I taught at - as they could hold their own in a fight. But since they were only relying on their physical strength and not the strength of their minds, they all eventually dropped out. Most of them never accepting that it was their own ego that let them down.

Martial artists who muscle their way through techniques will eventually no longer be able to do their art - unless they change. And change, of course, requires letting go of the old and accepting something new.

There are also more aspects to martial arts than just the physical violence that most practitioners focus on. Learning to avoid conflict is a lesson missed by many. This is due to ego.

I believe that if one only studies how to deal with conflict using more conflict, then more conflict will enter their life. But if you can learn to deal with conflict using peace, then, I believe, more peace will enter your life.

To me, this is true self-defense; the art of avoiding conflict if you can and dealing with it using peaceful means if you cannot.

[side note: yes, sometimes people must use physical violence to protect themselves. we need to train for that too. but, I believe, that we should allow room for other types of training as well.]


-John

 

[The Kai]

Hey that's a great philosophy, I mean it!. I thought you wanted more to talk about the application of the art.

if you teach in a concise clear manner, it would allow a student to build on his basics quicker, laying a nice foundation. Since it seems to be agreed upon that practice of the basics is what allow the student to master, and individualize the material (according to Mitose). Now if this is teaching wrong -the alternative grope around for the right answers to questions you don't know to ask yet!

So you did'nt think an individual could learn so you promoted them to 1st or 2nd degree?

 

[Karazenpo]

. Coincidence you may say, maybe, some may even say there's a connection to all general self defense techniques in all martial arts but since Mitose was Chow's instructor and Chow was Emperado's/Parker's and Parker's was Tracy's then why is it not so hard to believe it's simply the evolution of what Mitose taught. Seems a logical conclusion whether someone likes the man or not. I don't believe Parker, Emperado, Chow just made up their stuff from scratch, I don't buy it no matter how talented they are simply because there common denominator was James Mitose as much as some wish to distance themselves from that it is nevertheless a fact! With respect, Prof. Joe

* Mr. Shuras, I believe there would be a similarity between even the farthest off-shoot from what Mitosi or Chow taught. Even when sitting many people around the room and whispering a statement to the first, the end will be different yet still have a word or two from the beginning statement. It should be known that Professor Chow received his training from his father, Chow Hoon, who was a proficiant kung fu stylists from China. Tough many belive that he was nothing more then a street fighter, I beg to differ as I have seen several photos of him in the real old days in some sort of kung fu outfit and doing some forms. Professor Chow said his father was a Buddhists Priest from the Shanghai, China Temples and I have no way to prove otherwise, but since he never lied to me on anything else I have to believe him on this.

I spoke to Sijo Emparado some time a go and asked him about both men as he was there training during the era of Mitosi and Chow and he told me that Chow learned as much from Mitosi as Mitosi learned from Chow. He said that when Chow trained with Mitosi he was already very proficient in the martial arts, but wanted some place to go and train to hone in his techniques and at that time Mitosi was the well knowned martial artists as he knew many government officials and various people.

Thanks for allowing me to share my opinion,
Grandmaster Kuoha[/QUOTE]

Thank you very much, Grandmaster Kuoha, I truly appreciate you taking the time to contribute to the discussion. It's great to have your input here. Will more be released on Professor Chow's father? Like the pictures mentioned, his training? The Tracy's website disputes the Buddhist priest issue because he was married. Do you know if Hoon Chow was really arrested for a barroom fight as is claimed in the Tracy site? I 'respectfully' ask these questions for some type of resolution because this is what is given to us as the other side of the argument when we discuss these issues. Thank you. "Joe"