What is our base?

[Flying Crane]

Agreed. Both methods can work fine. I personally feel that stance training is a bit of a waste of time, as stances do not really come into play when in a real fight or even sparring, for the most part. I stressed the concept of footwork, as opposed to stances.

But again, either method can work.

I'll completely disagree with you on this. Stances are extremely important, and many people do not give them the attention that they need. And it shows clearly when they do their martial arts. Poor stances prevent the development of good techniques. Lots and lots and lots of people have poor techniques, stemming from poor stances. Just look around on youtube for plenty of example.

 

[punisher73]

I'll completely disagree with you on this. Stances are extremely important, and many people do not give them the attention that they need. And it shows clearly when they do their martial arts. Poor stances prevent the development of good techniques. Lots and lots and lots of people have poor techniques, stemming from poor stances. Just look around on youtube for plenty of example.

Agreed. Watch a good boxer and freeze their movement in time and you will see "stance" when they are throwing a technique. They know how to settle and transition to develop power in their technique.

ALL stances are transitional and should be used to support the angle of attack or defense of what you are doing. Because as MA's we are more concerned about things other than fists, we need a wider range of defense and an ability to employ our own diverse arsenal. Add some grappling (clinch etc.) and you REALLY see the need for stances to maintain posture and counterattack.

 

[punisher73]

should, but I don't believe it does. I believe option #2 never gives the same level of results because it builds on top of a poor foundation, and people never go back and fix it.

I agree with this, but sometimes to keep students this is what is required. It needs to be a mixture of the two. You need students to pay the bills, but you need your hardcore students to keep the art alive.

 

[MattJ]

Im assuming that what you talk about stances, you're talking about the typical Kenpo stances, ie: neutral bow, reverse, cat, etc.? If thats the case, then yes, I agree.

Yes, that is what I was referring to.

Flying Crane and punisher -

You are free to disagree, but boxers/kickboxers/MMA folk do not train 'stances', and do just fine. To try to "freeze" their motion belies my point about footwork. Stances are by definition static, and I can't see many times where one would want to be static in any kind of martial arts scenario (sparring or otherwise).

 

[Flying Crane]

Agreed. Watch a good boxer and freeze their movement in time and you will see "stance" when they are throwing a technique. They know how to settle and transition to develop power in their technique.

ALL stances are transitional and should be used to support the angle of attack or defense of what you are doing. Because as MA's we are more concerned about things other than fists, we need a wider range of defense and an ability to employ our own diverse arsenal. Add some grappling (clinch etc.) and you REALLY see the need for stances to maintain posture and counterattack.

I used to be sort of dazzled by the speed that a lot of kenpoists show on youtube clips. I thought, wow, those guys are really fast, blisteringly fast. I never clued into a lot of their stances.

Once I clued into the stances, I began to realize that many of these really fast guys have really lousy stances. Their feet are sliding all over the place. Feet are rolling up onto the sides, nothing is rooted on the ground, their feet are actually off the ground when delivering these techniques with blinding speed, they actually jump off the ground a little bit when striking something or when transitioning into the next strike, etc. This bleeds power and stability from the technique in all directions. It becomes dazzling speed with nothing behind it. A palace built on a sand dune.

I try to be tactful and not make personal attacks on people here in the forums, but I'll be honest and say that I've seen this kind of thing with some of our members here. I won't name names, but people here have posted their videos, and a lot of what I see, I think really is not very good. But people are proud of what they post.

I don't post my own stuff, so I don't comment about what other people post, at least not directly. But from what I've seen on youtube and whatnot, I think a lot of people who honesty believe they are really skilled, are actually really lacking. Much of it has to do with their stances.

Regarding the grappling issue that you mentioned, my kenpo teacher trained for a bit with the San Jose State University Judo team when he was young, after he had earned his kenpo shodan. When those guys would try and throw him, he would drop into a solid horse stance, and it became really really difficult for them to throw him down.

Stances go a long way in making everything a whole lot better.

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree with this, but sometimes to keep students this is what is required. It needs to be a mixture of the two. You need students to pay the bills, but you need your hardcore students to keep the art alive.

I understand, it is the reality of running a school.

The teacher needs to really make a point of working the stancework in on the sly, if you follow this route. Once you go too far down the road, it is impossible to fix it.

I don't think people necessarily need to stand in a horse stance for a half hour or something, altho this does help to build strength and learn to relax and settle into the stance properly. But when executing technique and kata, the teacher needs to harp on proper stances within the execution. Students get lazy or sloppy and stances suffer. Doing that kata? fine, get the stances right when you are doing it. Delayed Sword? Your stance was off, do it over. and again. and again...

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes, that is what I was referring to.

Flying Crane and punisher -

You are free to disagree, but boxers/kickboxers/MMA folk do not train 'stances', and do just fine. To try to "freeze" their motion belies my point about footwork. Stances are by definition static, and I can't see many times where one would want to be static in any kind of martial arts scenario (sparring or otherwise).

Maybe you could give a bit more description of what you mean by "training in stances". What process or exercise are you envisioning, with this phrase?

 

[MattJ]

Maybe you could give a bit more description of what you mean by "training in stances". What process or exercise are you envisioning, with this phrase?

I didn't mean to drag this thread further off topic, but since I was asked, stance training as seen in most kenpo schools. Students get in a horse. Then a reverse bow, etc. Unneccesary, IMHO. Just show them footwork, and tell them to keep their feet roughly shoulder width.

 

[Flying Crane]

I didn't mean to drag this thread further off topic, but since I was asked, stance training as seen in most kenpo schools. Students get in a horse. Then a reverse bow, etc. Unneccesary, IMHO. Just show them footwork, and tell them to keep their feet roughly shoulder width.

I don't think it's off topic at all, since we are discussing kenpo's base and in my opinion, stances are a very very important part of that base.

I pulled in a couple of my latest posts giving my thoughts on stances and what I see in a lack of stances. Do you find disagreement with what I'm saying here? Do you see things differently?

I don't think people necessarily need to stand in a horse stance for a half hour or something, altho this does help to build strength and learn to relax and settle into the stance properly. But when executing technique and kata, the teacher needs to harp on proper stances within the execution. Students get lazy or sloppy and stances suffer. Doing that kata? fine, get the stances right when you are doing it. Delayed Sword? Your stance was off, do it over. and again. and again...

I used to be sort of dazzled by the speed that a lot of kenpoists show on youtube clips. I thought, wow, those guys are really fast, blisteringly fast. I never clued into a lot of their stances.

Once I clued into the stances, I began to realize that many of these really fast guys have really lousy stances. Their feet are sliding all over the place. Feet are rolling up onto the sides, nothing is rooted on the ground, their feet are actually off the ground when delivering these techniques with blinding speed, they actually jump off the ground a little bit when striking something or when transitioning into the next strike, etc. This bleeds power and stability from the technique in all directions. It becomes dazzling speed with nothing behind it. A palace built on a sand dune.

I try to be tactful and not make personal attacks on people here in the forums, but I'll be honest and say that I've seen this kind of thing with some of our members here. I won't name names, but people here have posted their videos, and a lot of what I see, I think really is not very good. But people are proud of what they post.

I don't post my own stuff, so I don't comment about what other people post, at least not directly. But from what I've seen on youtube and whatnot, I think a lot of people who honesty believe they are really skilled, are actually really lacking. Much of it has to do with their stances.

Regarding the grappling issue that you mentioned, my kenpo teacher trained for a bit with the San Jose State University Judo team when he was young, after he had earned his kenpo shodan. When those guys would try and throw him, he would drop into a solid horse stance, and it became really really difficult for them to throw him down.

Stances go a long way in making everything a whole lot better.

 

[MJS]

I agree with FC regarding the discussion of stances. We've got a good discussion going here, so I'd like to keep it going.

On the subject of stances: IMO, I think alot of times, and not just with Kenpo, people see a stance, and ask just that..."How or why the hell would you fight out of something like that?" I view stances as a momentary transition, in whatever we're doing. If we broke down some techniques, we'd see numerous stances, yet we're not locked into any one stance for more than a brief moment.

A boxer is in a stance, but he's moving, using footwork, etc., while fighting.

 

[Blindside]

GT Gaje of Pekiti Tirsia Kali is very adamant that his system doesn't teach "stances" he teaches footwork. And a very specific method of footwork it is, the guys who have it down well are incredibly fluid in their motion and rooted when the strike calls for it. The guys who don't have it, well don't.

As a kenpoist I look at the PTK footwork and see "cat, neutral, forward, neutral, front to back switch, cat, cat, neutral, twist, etc."

Same result, different approach, I'm not sure one is more successful than the other.

 

[Luther]

Yes, that is what I was referring to.

Flying Crane and punisher -

You are free to disagree, but boxers/kickboxers/MMA folk do not train 'stances', and do just fine. To try to "freeze" their motion belies my point about footwork. Stances are by definition static, and I can't see many times where one would want to be static in any kind of martial arts scenario (sparring or otherwise).

They call it footwork. but they are stances. Being Static or stopping motion is something else.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I used to be sort of dazzled by the speed that a lot of kenpoists show on youtube clips. I thought, wow, those guys are really fast, blisteringly fast. I never clued into a lot of their stances.

Once I clued into the stances, I began to realize that many of these really fast guys have really lousy stances. Their feet are sliding all over the place. Feet are rolling up onto the sides, nothing is rooted on the ground, their feet are actually off the ground when delivering these techniques with blinding speed, they actually jump off the ground a little bit when striking something or when transitioning into the next strike, etc. This bleeds power and stability from the technique in all directions. It becomes dazzling speed with nothing behind it. A palace built on a sand dune.

I try to be tactful and not make personal attacks on people here in the forums, but I'll be honest and say that I've seen this kind of thing with some of our members here. I won't name names, but people here have posted their videos, and a lot of what I see, I think really is not very good. But people are proud of what they post.

I don't post my own stuff, so I don't comment about what other people post, at least not directly. But from what I've seen on youtube and whatnot, I think a lot of people who honesty believe they are really skilled, are actually really lacking. Much of it has to do with their stances.

Regarding the grappling issue that you mentioned, my kenpo teacher trained for a bit with the San Jose State University Judo team when he was young, after he had earned his kenpo shodan. When those guys would try and throw him, he would drop into a solid horse stance, and it became really really difficult for them to throw him down.

Stances go a long way in making everything a whole lot better.

We don't teach stance set, as a result of what you are talking about; why have some yellow belt reinforce bad stance work over and over.
Sean

 

[Flying Crane]

We don't teach stance set, as a result of what you are talking about; why have some yellow belt reinforce bad stance work over and over.
Sean

I don't know stance set so I cannot comment specifically.

However, assuming that stance set is designed to teach and reinforce good stances, then why not insist that the students keep good stances when doing it, or any other set or kata?

It's only bad stance work if the teacher allows it to be so. It's the teacher's job to correct the student, fix the stances, and do not allow students to get away with bad stances.

sets and kata and techniques are no magic guarantee that the student is doing it right. The instructor needs to correct the student, and make sure the student is executing the material correctly. The material is only a tool used to develop skills. If the tool isn't used correctly, the results are lacking.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't know stance set so I cannot comment specifically.

However, assuming that stance set is designed to teach and reinforce good stances, then why not insist that the students keep good stances when doing it, or any other set or kata?

It's only bad stance work if the teacher allows it to be so. It's the teacher's job to correct the student, fix the stances, and do not allow students to get away with bad stances.

sets and kata and techniques are no magic guarantee that the student is doing it right. The instructor needs to correct the student, and make sure the student is executing the material correctly. The material is only a tool used to develop skills. If the tool isn't used correctly, the results are lacking.

We don't want people doing static stancework at all, only proper manueuvering; my point is that stancework at all is bad stancework. We teach motion.
sean

 

[MattJ]

FC -

But when executing technique and kata, the teacher needs to harp on proper stances within the execution. Students get lazy or sloppy and stances suffer. Doing that kata? fine, get the stances right when you are doing it. Delayed Sword? Your stance was off, do it over. and again. and again...

For kata, certainly stance training is required, and to an extent, also in technique training ie; because it has to be done a certain, specific way.

Feet are rolling up onto the sides, nothing is rooted on the ground, their feet are actually off the ground when delivering these techniques with blinding speed, they actually jump off the ground a little bit when striking something or when transitioning into the next strike

Sure, and some of these problems I would attribute to poor footwork. Knowing stances is good, but knowing when to use them is a different skill, IMHO - and that is where footwork comes in. I specifically attribute poor grounding to a lack of contact/resistance training ie; not enough bag work or contact sparring.

When those guys would try and throw him, he would drop into a solid horse stance, and it became really really difficult for them to throw him down.

Haha, hasn't been my experience with most kenpo people, but good for him! But at the same time, we've all seen the immobile, deep-stance guys who get lit up by those with more fluid footowork. Both ways have plusses and minuses.

MJS -

..."How or why the hell would you fight out of something like that?" I view stances as a momentary transition, in whatever we're doing. If we broke down some techniques, we'd see numerous stances, yet we're not locked into any one stance for more than a brief moment.

Exactly - which has always begged the question (for me), "why bother with stances, then?"

Blindside -

Same result, different approach, I'm not sure one is more successful than the other.

Yeah, I'm not saying that emphasis on footwork way will get better results - just faster.

 

[Flying Crane]

We don't want people doing static stancework at all, only proper manueuvering; my point is that stancework at all is bad stancework. We teach motion.
sean

I'll point you back to my post, #89 and ask: do you agree or disagree, or have any other comments on what I say in that post?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't think it's off topic at all, since we are discussing kenpo's base and in my opinion, stances are a very very important part of that base.

I pulled in a couple of my latest posts giving my thoughts on stances and what I see in a lack of stances. Do you find disagreement with what I'm saying here? Do you see things differently?

You realy just need a teacher to point out to the student, the concept of bending their knees (which is what should have happened in 90% of the you tube vids), point out depth and width issues, and show them how to manuever; so, the snap shot stances you say are part of the base are just a part of a broader generalized principle.
sean

 

[Flying Crane]

FC -

For kata, certainly stance training is required, and to an extent, also in technique training ie; because it has to be done a certain, specific way.

why do you feel it is required for kata, when you don't feel it's important otherwise? Feel free to correct me if I've mischaracterized what you're saying here.

Sure, and some of these problems I would attribute to poor footwork. Knowing stances is good, but knowing when to use them is a different skill, IMHO - and that is where footwork comes in. I specifically attribute poor grounding to a lack of contact/resistance training ie; not enough bag work or contact sparring.

footwork and stance training are actually closely connected. How you move should connect from one "stance" to another, even if your time in that position is only for an instant. But that instant of stance, when used appropriately, is extremely important to the quality of your technique.

Bagwork and contact sparring usually undermines stances, if the stances were not properly developed first. You need to build stances in order to hit the bag well, or spar well. Sparring and bagwork, without good stances first, will not make the stances better. Poor grounding is due to a lack of attention and training in proper stances and the related footwork.

Haha, hasn't been my experience with most kenpo people, but good for him! But at the same time, we've all seen the immobile, deep-stance guys who get lit up by those with more fluid footowork. Both ways have plusses and minuses.

He didn't just stand there and hold a horse and let the guys tug away at him. Of course they would eventually throw him if that is what he did. Rather, when they moved in to execute the technique, at that crucial moment is when he would drop into the stance to cut them off. The time spent in the stance was only momentary. But when you know when and where and how to hit them, the stances make a huge difference.

Yeah, I'm not saying that emphasis on footwork way will get better results - just faster.

this begs the question: what do you feel is better in the long run, Better, or Faster results?

 

[Flying Crane]

You realy just need a teacher to point out to the student, the concept of bending their knees (which is what should have happened in 90% of the you tube vids), point out depth and width issues, and show them how to manuever; so, the snap shot stances you say are part of the base are just a part of a broader generalized principle.
sean

Do you think pointing that out once is enough? This is the kind of thing that students need over and over and over. It's a very rare student who can learn something once, do it perfectly, and never need corrections again. Most students need constant reminders over a long period of time.

I think that is what most students do not get. I think they do not get it because their instructors did not get it, and do not understand it themselves, and therefor cannot teach it. I think that a lot of people who are "teachers" should not be teaching.