What is our base?

[Doc]

I don't know whether the physical basics were or weren't "emphasized by its creator" but I do know that you "old guys" sure seem to loathe poor physical basics, and have a really keen eye at spotting them at trying to correct poor fools like me.

Old? Old? Uh, old?

Anyway, let me give you some historical perspective. Mr. Parker tried one and only once at codifying basics.

He published a "Basics Booklet" for beginner students in the sixties. It featured him with a little camera trickery on the cover in street clothes, threatening himself in a gi, with a knife. Also featured were student Tom Gow.

In the inside Mr. Parker demonstrated basic stances, and blocks, and put them in the context of essentially the first part of Short Form One. By the time it was printed, Mr. Parker had already decided 90% of it was not what he wanted.

He was in the process of refining basics until he passed, but he never taught them because that is not what people wanted. He used to tell me, "If I went out and taught for two hours and did nothing but stances and footwork, pretty soon there would be nobody showing up but me. You have to give them what they want, not what they need."

The proof of that was in the Friday Night Classes he started teaching in Pasadena. He told me, "Classes got smaller and smaller, and one day I was the only one that showed up." He said, "I vowed that day, that I would NEVER teach another Friday Night Class at the Pasadena School for those guys." And he didn't.

 

[pete]

I'd like to add; not only shamelessly stolen, I intend to use it tonight.

Doc - no shame in 'stealing' a gem like that... you think i made that up all on my own!?! we are all borrowers!

 

[Flying Crane]

Old? Old? Uh, old?

He was in the process of refining basics until he passed, but he never taught them because that is not what people wanted. He used to tell me, "If I went out and taught for two hours and did nothing but stances and footwork, pretty soon there would be nobody showing up but me. You have to give them what they want, not what they need."

The proof of that was in the Friday Night Classes he started teaching in Pasadena. He told me, "Classes got smaller and smaller, and one day I was the only one that showed up." He said, "I vowed that day, that I would NEVER teach another Friday Night Class at the Pasadena School for those guys." And he didn't.

I help my kung fu sifu teach White Crane to a very small group of interested guys. There are currently three of them, one of whom is not so regular, and with another one expressing interest in joining. We'll see.

I've been with my sifu for 12 years now. Mostly he teaches taiji to middle-aged and older folks who want exercise, but I convinced him to teach me white crane on the side.

Over the years, we've had a very small number of people come in asking to do white crane, and sifu would turn them over to me. Most of them didn't come back after 3 or 4 sessions, some never returned after the first. I figured it was just my winning personality. Now I've got 3, and maybe a 4th, these guys have been with me for around a year, little more for one, little less for the others, but this is what I've got after working on this stuff for 12 years. We focus very very heavily on the basics. Just teaching these guys to develop our specific method of power generation has taken months and months, and they get frustrated but they also have the occasional "lightbulb" moment. All we do for two hours is work on the basics, with some application of those basics.

A few months ago I was honored to be accepted into my sigung's training group, where he only teaches four disciples, all of whom have been with him for 30 or 40 or more years. So now I train with my sisuk and my sigung, in sigung's back yard in private, and probably I will be the last student that Sigung will ever accept. We focus heavily on the basics, making stances and footwork right, using the proper power generation that is specific to this system, and making sure this foundation carries thru in the forms practice. And like I said, I am the fifth member of a group of five, working in private in Sigung's back yard, this man who has been teaching white crane for probably 50 years.

My Dai Sisuk has talked about the old days when sigung used to have a school open to the public in Chinatown. That was decades ago. He laughs at the idea of people coming in to "steal" your material, because he says, people look at this stuff and don't understand it and don't stick around to learn it properly, so what can they steal? You can hide the "secrets" right out in the open, let everyone see it all, because nobody will understand it nor undertake the effort to learn it properly.

You can focus on the basics, and people will still come. But you won't ever make a living doing it.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I agree that the context seems to be changing but I still contend that yellow belt is the first level and that all that it entails, including the yellow belt techs are the foundation upon which we build an orangelt and so on. Of course the techs themselves are just ideas, and the extensions are a bunch of busy work added through out the years. Most students start aout at yelow and build their second level techs from the experiences of dealing with the first level techs. For many kenpoists Attitude is the base, but you instill it with the experience of the yellow belt material and the experiences there of. The first level techniques are meant to be built on.
Sean

 

[MJS]

Old? Old? Uh, old?

Anyway, let me give you some historical perspective. Mr. Parker tried one and only once at codifying basics.

He published a "Basics Booklet" for beginner students in the sixties. It featured him with a little camera trickery on the cover in street clothes, threatening himself in a gi, with a knife. Also featured were student Tom Gow.

In the inside Mr. Parker demonstrated basic stances, and blocks, and put them in the context of essentially the first part of Short Form One. By the time it was printed, Mr. Parker had already decided 90% of it was not what he wanted.

He was in the process of refining basics until he passed, but he never taught them because that is not what people wanted. He used to tell me, "If I went out and taught for two hours and did nothing but stances and footwork, pretty soon there would be nobody showing up but me. You have to give them what they want, not what they need."

The proof of that was in the Friday Night Classes he started teaching in Pasadena. He told me, "Classes got smaller and smaller, and one day I was the only one that showed up." He said, "I vowed that day, that I would NEVER teach another Friday Night Class at the Pasadena School for those guys." And he didn't.

And the bold part Sir, hits the nail right on the head. Its sad, because now all you're going to have is a bunch of kata and tech collectors, how can blaze thru material, but in reality, the material they have stinks. People, unfortunately, dont want quality, they want quantity.

 

[Doc]

Doc - no shame in 'stealing' a gem like that... you think i made that up all on my own!?! we are all borrowers!

Well I'm "borrowing" that one from you!

 

[Doc]

I help my kung fu sifu teach White Crane to a very small group of interested guys. There are currently three of them, one of whom is not so regular, and with another one expressing interest in joining. We'll see.

I've been with my sifu for 12 years now. Mostly he teaches taiji to middle-aged and older folks who want exercise, but I convinced him to teach me white crane on the side.

Over the years, we've had a very small number of people come in asking to do white crane, and sifu would turn them over to me. Most of them didn't come back after 3 or 4 sessions, some never returned after the first. I figured it was just my winning personality. Now I've got 3, and maybe a 4th, these guys have been with me for around a year, little more for one, little less for the others, but this is what I've got after working on this stuff for 12 years. We focus very very heavily on the basics. Just teaching these guys to develop our specific method of power generation has taken months and months, and they get frustrated but they also have the occasional "lightbulb" moment. All we do for two hours is work on the basics, with some application of those basics.

A few months ago I was honored to be accepted into my sigung's training group, where he only teaches four disciples, all of whom have been with him for 30 or 40 or more years. So now I train with my sisuk and my sigung, in sigung's back yard in private, and probably I will be the last student that Sigung will ever accept. We focus heavily on the basics, making stances and footwork right, using the proper power generation that is specific to this system, and making sure this foundation carries thru in the forms practice. And like I said, I am the fifth member of a group of five, working in private in Sigung's back yard, this man who has been teaching white crane for probably 50 years.

My Dai Sisuk has talked about the old days when sigung used to have a school open to the public in Chinatown. That was decades ago. He laughs at the idea of people coming in to "steal" your material, because he says, people look at this stuff and don't understand it and don't stick around to learn it properly, so what can they steal? You can hide the "secrets" right out in the open, let everyone see it all, because nobody will understand it nor undertake the effort to learn it properly.

You can focus on the basics, and people will still come. But you won't ever make a living doing it.

Good for you sir. Sounds like we're in the same boat. One of the things that Mr. Parker hoped to do was bridge that gap by creating an art that had all of the knowledge and applications of the old world traditions, but with a modern American spin of fairly quick applications, while teaching strong foundational material. He felt if he removed the cultural rituals that intentionally elongated the process of learning, he could find a reasonable compromise. This was his American Kenpo, not the Kenpo Karate branded with his name for commercial purposes. The kenpo that we argue about because there was nothing ever precisely physically demanded.

This is what I'm trying to continuously do today from his personal instruction. Find that balance, focus on precise basics an applications, while giving people functional skills. Mr. Parker continued that process but only in private, and it never reached his students at large. But he did get the ball rolling and spread the idea around the world. Only money, egos, and the quest for rank and power corrupted what was actually a pretty good start.

Once again sir, much respect to you and your teacher. It is not easy for the masses, but when you simply put the art first above everything else, it becomes a labor of love, and a passion that will never die.

 

[Flying Crane]

Good for you sir. Sounds like we're in the same boat. One of the things that Mr. Parker hoped to do was bridge that gap by creating an art that had all of the knowledge and applications of the old world traditions, but with a modern American spin of fairly quick applications, while teaching strong foundational material. He felt if he removed the cultural rituals that intentionally elongated the process of learning, he could find a reasonable compromise. This was his American Kenpo, not the Kenpo Karate branded with his name for commercial purposes. The kenpo that we argue about because there was nothing ever precisely physically demanded.

This is what I'm trying to continuously do today from his personal instruction. Find that balance, focus on precise basics an applications, while giving people functional skills. Mr. Parker continued that process but only in private, and it never reached his students at large. But he did get the ball rolling and spread the idea around the world. Only money, egos, and the quest for rank and power corrupted what was actually a pretty good start.

Once again sir, much respect to you and your teacher. It is not easy for the masses, but when you simply put the art first above everything else, it becomes a labor of love, and a passion that will never die.

I was lucky to meet the right people and then stick with it long enough to be taken seriously for my intentions. Then, those people were generous enough to open the right doors for me. I am tremendously fortunate and owe a big debt of gratitude, and I don't forget it.

The experience has affected all of my martial training, not just in my white crane.

Thank you for the acknowledgement.

 

[Doc]

I was lucky to meet the right people and then stick with it long enough to be taken seriously for my intentions. Then, those people were generous enough to open the right doors for me. I am tremendously fortunate and owe a big debt of gratitude, and I don't forget it.

The experience has affected all of my martial training, not just in my white crane.

Thank you for the acknowledgement.

Same for me, and the reason I continue his work in his name, and give him all the credit sir.

Backatcha.

 

[MJS]

I was lucky to meet the right people and then stick with it long enough to be taken seriously for my intentions. Then, those people were generous enough to open the right doors for me. I am tremendously fortunate and owe a big debt of gratitude, and I don't forget it.

The experience has affected all of my martial training, not just in my white crane.

Thank you for the acknowledgement.

Same for me, and the reason I continue his work in his name, and give him all the credit sir.

Backatcha.

I agree with that 100%. Its amazing what the right teacher can do for your training.

 

[MJS]

I agree that the context seems to be changing but I still contend that yellow belt is the first level and that all that it entails, including the yellow belt techs are the foundation upon which we build an orangelt and so on. Of course the techs themselves are just ideas, and the extensions are a bunch of busy work added through out the years. Most students start aout at yelow and build their second level techs from the experiences of dealing with the first level techs. For many kenpoists Attitude is the base, but you instill it with the experience of the yellow belt material and the experiences there of. The first level techniques are meant to be built on.
Sean

So, you're using the techniques to teach the basics?

 

[Ray]

Old? Old? Uh, old?

Anyway, let me give you some historical perspective. Mr. Parker tried one and only once at codifying basics.

I apoligize about the "old" comment...I only meant it relative to...ah never mind.

My point is, you and some others are real serious about the basics being done correctly. You have a set of measurable criteria for them, etc.

For me, it enlightening that you and those others (some of who area considered "seniors") concentrate so much on the basic fundmamentals.

 

[silvestre]

an interview with MR PARKER, I read that the American Kenpo comes from the Chinese KEMPO







best regards

 

[Luther]

When I was learning kenpo in the 80's, at our school we had what were called the "First 5's". It was the first 5 classes that were one on one with an instructor. It entailed all the basic motion , foot maneuvers, principles and terminology you needed to participate in group classes. It was very basic Kenpo and it was required for anyone that wanted to participate in the group classes, even if you were a black belt from another style that wanted to learn Kenpo. I always assumed these things to be the base of the art as everything I learned was built upon these basics. Horse stance, Slautes, bowing, all hand techniques basically from starblock as it was taught then. neutral bow and basic foot maneuvers, stepping back, stepping through, step drag, drag step. It was an introduction to terminology and principles as well. toe heel line, Knee heel line, Tracking, economy of motion, margin for error, drop, torque, reciprocation and more from lone kimono. Even sayings were introduced. It was an amazing amount of "motion knowledge" for the first 5 days but by the time you were in your first group class you could participate and know what was expected for school etiquette etc. You had your "kenpo base" it seems to me at that time. It was then that we went on to learn the techniques, principles and forms for yellow belt as well as the sayings. Again this was only at the school I went to. It seemed very logical to me.

 

[Touch Of Death]

So, you're using the techniques to teach the basics?

Its an introduction to working basics on a live body.
Sean

 

[MJS]

Its an introduction to working basics on a live body.
Sean

Dont you think that things should be learned individually first before putting them all together? I mean, if a person can't do a solid punch or stance in a static fashion first, how are they going to put it together with movement?

 

[Doc]

When I was learning kenpo in the 80's, at our school we had what were called the "First 5's". It was the first 5 classes that were one on one with an instructor. It entailed all the basic motion , foot maneuvers, principles and terminology you needed to participate in group classes. It was very basic Kenpo and it was required for anyone that wanted to participate in the group classes, even if you were a black belt from another style that wanted to learn Kenpo. I always assumed these things to be the base of the art as everything I learned was built upon these basics. Horse stance, Slautes, bowing, all hand techniques basically from starblock as it was taught then. neutral bow and basic foot maneuvers, stepping back, stepping through, step drag, drag step. It was an introduction to terminology and principles as well. toe heel line, Knee heel line, Tracking, economy of motion, margin for error, drop, torque, reciprocation and more from lone kimono. Even sayings were introduced. It was an amazing amount of "motion knowledge" for the first 5 days but by the time you were in your first group class you could participate and know what was expected for school etiquette etc. You had your "kenpo base" it seems to me at that time. It was then that we went on to learn the techniques, principles and forms for yellow belt as well as the sayings. Again this was only at the school I went to. It seemed very logical to me.

You're talking about the old Arthur Murray Dance Studio Business Plan brought to the commercial martial arts business that started everyone with 5 private lessons, half hour each for a set fee. It was known in the business to many as "Looky Loo" money. You couldn't lose. You invested an hour and half to indoctrinate potential students and set them up to "close" the contract for group lessons. If they take a couple lessons and don't come back, you still made a buck on their curiosity.

 

[Luther]

You're talking about the old Arthur Murray Dance Studio Business Plan brought to the commercial martial arts business that started everyone with 5 private lessons, half hour each for a set fee. It was known in the business to many as "Looky Loo" money. You couldn't lose. You invested an hour and half to indoctrinate potential students and set them up to "close" the contract for group lessons. If they take a couple lessons and don't come back, you still made a buck on their curiosity.

That is interesting to say the least. When you say it was intended to indoctrinate someone from a teaching perspective the "looky loo" makes it sound as if money and or a contract was the only thing accomplished during this process. I wanted to take epak because my friends were in epak. The money was never an issue for me. I wanted to be good at Ed Parker's Kenpo. I can see now how it was simply a taste of kenpo like you said, definably not the base. It is a starting point for me. To me it defined alot of things and introduced me to better motion. Even if it was Arthur Murrays idea to increase sales. Thank you for your insight Mr. Chapel.

 

[Doc]

That is interesting to say the least. When you say it was intended to indoctrinate someone from a teaching perspective the "looky loo" makes it sound as if money and or a contract was the only thing accomplished during this process. I wanted to take epak because my friends were in epak. The money was never an issue for me. I wanted to be good at Ed Parker's Kenpo. I can see now how it was simply a taste of kenpo like you said, definably not the base. It is a starting point for me. To me it defined alot of things and introduced me to better motion. Even if it was Arthur Murrays idea to increase sales. Thank you for your insight Mr. Chapel.

It was and is a good business plan. Some find this a negative, however without a good business plan there is no school. Business requires a compromise to be successful. The Martial Arts has never been a good business endeavor, and you cannot teach the true in-depth material in a commercial environment because clientele won't support it. It is what it is.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Dont you think that things should be learned individually first before putting them all together? I mean, if a person can't do a solid punch or stance in a static fashion first, how are they going to put it together with movement?

Sure, but this isn't rocket science.
Sean