What is our base?

[Touch Of Death]

Do you think pointing that out once is enough? This is the kind of thing that students need over and over and over. It's a very rare student who can learn something once, do it perfectly, and never need corrections again. Most students need constant reminders over a long period of time.

I think that is what most students do not get. I think they do not get it because their instructors did not get it, and do not understand it themselves, and therefor cannot teach it. I think that a lot of people who are "teachers" should not be teaching.

Its an imaginary teacher that only has to say it once. LOL I would go so far as to say that all teachers of the martial arts are missing something.
sean

 

[MattJ]

why do you feel it is required for kata, when you don't feel it's important otherwise? Feel free to correct me if I've mischaracterized what you're saying here.

No, you're not mischaracterizing. It's required for kata because that's what kata is - a bunch of stances and strikes strung together in a certain order. However, I feel kata is a waste of time, too. LOL.

footwork and stance training are actually closely connected.

Only if you teach stances. Other styles seem to show that it's not necessary.

How you move should connect from one "stance" to another, even if your time in that position is only for an instant. But that instant of stance, when used appropriately, is extremely important to the quality of your technique.

I agree that knowledge of good footwork is important.

Bagwork and contact sparring usually undermines stances, if the stances were not properly developed first. You need to build stances in order to hit the bag well, or spar well. Sparring and bagwork, without good stances first, will not make the stances better. Poor grounding is due to a lack of attention and training in proper stances and the related footwork.

We clearly have a different experience here. Not sure what kind of sparring and bagwork you are referring to.

this begs the question: what do you feel is better in the long run, Better, or Faster results?

You are assuming that one way is better? I prefer faster, if the results are going to be the same.

 

[Flying Crane]

No, you're not mischaracterizing. It's required for kata because that's what kata is - a bunch of stances and strikes strung together in a certain order. However, I feel kata is a waste of time, too. LOL.

you don't have to like kata, and you don't need to do it in your practice or in what you teach. that's your choice.

However, you do not understand what kata is, nor how to use it as a training tool.

Only if you teach stances. Other styles seem to show that it's not necessary.



We clearly have a different experience here. Not sure what kind of sparring and bagwork you are referring to.



You are assuming that one way is better? I prefer faster, if the results are going to be the same.

I think you and I have a deep divide in how we approach our training, and in what we understand to be important. Without actually being able to see what you are doing, I don't think I can comment further, nor carry an internet discussion about it. Too much of it needs to be seen and felt, and cannot be adequately typed out. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Touch Of Death]

No, you're not mischaracterizing. It's required for kata because that's what kata is - a bunch of stances and strikes strung together in a certain order. However, I feel kata is a waste of time, too. LOL.



Only if you teach stances. Other styles seem to show that it's not necessary.



I agree that knowledge of good footwork is important.



We clearly have a different experience here. Not sure what kind of sparring and bagwork you are referring to.



You are assuming that one way is better? I prefer faster, if the results are going to be the same.

So, why is Kata a bad idea?
Sean

 

[Flying Crane]

Its an imaginary teacher that only has to say it once.

no, I think there are lots and lots of teachers who only say it once.

However, it's an imaginary student who only needs to hear it once.

I would go so far as to say that all teachers of the martial arts are missing something.
sean

some more than others.

 

[Touch Of Death]

no, I think there are lots and lots of teachers who only say it once.

However, it's an imaginary student who only needs to hear it once.

[quote
I would go so far as to say that all teachers of the martial arts are missing something.
sean

some more than others.

I agree, unless you are refering to me, then screw you hippy. LOL:uhyeah: Actually some students just aren't ready to hear and work with what a teacher says to them. Time and practice helps.
Sean

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree, unless you are refering to me, then screw you hippy. LOL:uhyeah: Actually some students just aren't ready to hear and work with what a teacher says to them. Time and practice helps.
Sean

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, least of all someone I haven't met and haven't seen his work.

and yes, I am a hippy at heart.

 

[MattJ]

FC -

However, you do not understand what kata is, nor how to use it as a training tool.

Huh? Do you know me? I'm quite sure you can't read my mind, and you apparently don't know my background, either. I haven't made any assumptions about your ability to spar or hit a bag. WTH!

Touch of Death -

So, why is Kata a bad idea?

Thought I was fairly clear? Same reason that stance training is a waste of time. Footwork, striking coordination, etc, can be learned faster in other ways. But we're getting way off topic, yes? I wasn't trying to start a kata/anti-kata thing. I gave my opinion about it because it was posited to me about stance training.

 

[MJS]

It takes no time at all to mimick the movement and do it poorly.

It takes a lot longer to do it well, with good technique, and with a high level of effectiveness.

You want quick? Like I said earlier, buy a gun.

Agreed. Just like I said in an earlier post, even if things are shortened for the sake of learning faster, time, quality time at that, still needs to be put in.

 

[MJS]

FC -



For kata, certainly stance training is required, and to an extent, also in technique training ie; because it has to be done a certain, specific way.



Sure, and some of these problems I would attribute to poor footwork. Knowing stances is good, but knowing when to use them is a different skill, IMHO - and that is where footwork comes in. I specifically attribute poor grounding to a lack of contact/resistance training ie; not enough bag work or contact sparring.



Haha, hasn't been my experience with most kenpo people, but good for him! But at the same time, we've all seen the immobile, deep-stance guys who get lit up by those with more fluid footowork. Both ways have plusses and minuses.

MJS -



Exactly - which has always begged the question (for me), "why bother with stances, then?"

Blindside -



Yeah, I'm not saying that emphasis on footwork way will get better results - just faster.

Why teach the stances? Well, thats a good question, and I would say it depends on you're teaching. If you are teaching kata, then IMO, yes, the stances will need to be taught, other wise, the student will aimlessly be going thru the kata, having no clue what they're doing.

If the techs. are taught, then to some extent, I'd imagine they'd still need to be taught, again, so the student has some sort of idea as to what they're doing.

Again, some sort of footwork/stance will need to be taught, but IMO, I'd say it all comes down to how its being taught. I teach them, but I also teach that they're momentary spots, not something you stay in for "X" amount of time.

For the record, I teach kata, but I'm not as much of a 'fan' of it as some. Again, to each his own.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Forms or Kata are about you and how you move. If you watch a person do a form it gives you a pretty good idea of what the practitioner knows and how they move. It teaches both control and timing. Its also a good indicater of consitstancy.
Sean

 

[Doc]

I wasn't. I was intoduced into the Orange belt stuff; never saw the yellow until years later, and was surprised to learn there was such a beast. Used to call the foundation material the "WOP" material -- W = White, O = Orange, P = Purple. No yellow. Old format.

Those whose introduction to Kenpo started after the commercial era might be surprised to know it began without any Yellow or Orange Belt.

 

[Flying Crane]

FC -



Huh? Do you know me? I'm quite sure you can't read my mind, and you apparently don't know my background, either. I haven't made any assumptions about your ability to spar or hit a bag. WTH!

The comment you made about what kata is, tells me that you do not understand it. I know that kata is more than what you described it. You are welcome to revise your description of kata, if you like.

again, you don't have to like kata, you don't have to practice it or teach it, and you can certainly develop skills without it.

But if your description of what kata is, is an accurate statement of what you honestly believe it to be, then you do not understand it. That's OK. I don't know anything about automobile mechanics. I can barely change a flat tire.

 

[MattJ]

MJS -

Why teach the stances? Well, thats a good question, and I would say it depends on you're teaching. If you are teaching kata, then IMO, yes, the stances will need to be taught, other wise, the student will aimlessly be going thru the kata, having no clue what they're doing.

If the techs. are taught, then to some extent, I'd imagine they'd still need to be taught, again, so the student has some sort of idea as to what they're doing.

Yes, exactly, this was the point I was trying to make with FC regarding stance training. Kata training requires stance training.

Touch of Death -

Forms or Kata are about you and how you move. If you watch a person do a form it gives you a pretty good idea of what the practitioner knows and how they move. It teaches both control and timing. Its also a good indicater of consitstancy.

Yes, in a very static and non-specific way. I don't agree that kata can teach or show timing or targeting in any relevant way. You will have a much better idea of how they move (ie; application) by watching them hit something or spar, or some other resistant drill.

FC -

The comment you made about what kata is, tells me that you do not understand it. I know that kata is more than what you described it. You are welcome to revise your description of kata, if you like.

Please remind me of my "description" of kata. I gave an opinion.

again, you don't have to like kata, you don't have to practice it or teach it, and you can certainly develop skills without it.

OK, so what are we disagreeing about? I never said anyone *shouldn't* do kata if they like it or get something out of it.

But if your description of what kata is, is an accurate statement of what you honestly believe it to be, then you do not understand it.

You are extremely arrogant. I can therefore assume from your "description" of bagwork and sparring that you don't know anything about either of those, right? Works both ways. It wouldn't even surprise me to find out that I outrank you or have been training longer. You might want to check your assumptions at the door.

EDIT to add that I approach martial arts training very much from an application oriented POV, if that helps anyone understand where I'm coming from here.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Those whose introduction to Kenpo started after the commercial era might be surprised to know it began without any Yellow or Orange Belt.

A dying breed. Most people that do kenpo now, and I mean in to the 90%+ use the colored belt system, and I don't think anyone would be suprised that you did things differently before there was a commercial colored belt system.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

MJS -



Yes, exactly, this was the point I was trying to make with FC regarding stance training. Kata training requires stance training.

Touch of Death -



Yes, in a very static and non-specific way. I don't agree that kata can teach or show timing or targeting in any relevant way. You will have a much better idea of how they move (ie; application) by watching them hit something or spar, or some other resistant drill.

FC -



Please remind me of my "description" of kata. I gave an opinion.



OK, so what are we disagreeing about? I never said anyone *shouldn't* do kata if they like it or get something out of it.



You are extremely arrogant. I can therefore assume from your "description" of bagwork and sparring that you don't know anything about either of those, right? Works both ways. It wouldn't even surprise me to find out that I outrank you or have been training longer. You might want to check your assumptions at the door.

EDIT to add that I approach martial arts training very much from an application oriented POV, if that helps anyone understand where I'm coming from here.

Perhaps you don't consider methods of execution in any relavant way.
Sean

 

[MattJ]

ToD -

Not sure what you mean. Please clarify.

 

[Flying Crane]

You are extremely arrogant. I can therefore assume from your "description" of bagwork and sparring that you don't know anything about either of those, right? Works both ways. It wouldn't even surprise me to find out that I outrank you or have been training longer. You might want to check your assumptions at the door.

And there we were, actually having a discussion. I'm not interested in your rank, it doesn't really mean much to me, nor impress me one way or the other.

if you are happy with what you do and how you do it, carry on by all means. It's none of my business and I won't try and give you a different perspective. doesn't really matter to me.

 

[Luther]

TOD is a blackbelt. There is no need to go on about it. While fundamentally we may disagree on points he has a depth of knowledge that deserves respect without threatening him or demeaning him about his bag work or whatever.

 

[Doc]

TOD is a blackbelt. There is no need to go on about it. While fundamentally we may disagree on points he has a depth of knowledge that deserves respect without threatening him or demeaning him about his bag work or whatever.

"WFD." Isn't everybody?